USACE Hiring

[tdavis4]

Hello,
I'm sure that all the USACE Smart Scholars are worried about all these rumors floating around. Could someone please try and answer the following questions:

1.Anyone who is done with Phase 1 have you been hired and what is your GS pay grade?

2.Has anyone joined the ACTEDS program and signed a mobility agreement?

3. Has anyone gotten out of Phase 2 with SMART or asked about it?

4. Has anyone gotten HR Specialist to get in writing a salary offer?

[Guest]

Hello,
I'm sure that all the USACE Smart Scholars are worried about all these rumors floating around. Could someone please try and answer the following questions:

1.Anyone who is done with Phase 1 have you been hired and what is your GS pay grade?

2.Has anyone joined the ACTEDS program and signed a mobility agreement?

3. Has anyone gotten out of Phase 2 with SMART or asked about it?

4. Has anyone gotten HR Specialist to get in writing a salary offer?

I'm not hired yet, but good friends with a USACE guy at ERDC. PhD Civil Eng. They do paybanding but he came in at GS12 step 5. I don't think he had work experience or a PE. He was 2009 cohort and got hired in 2011.

Can't help you with the others yet.

[tdavis4]

Paybanding is gone at the end of this year

[Guest]

Paybanding is gone at the end of this year

I don't think it's gone at ERDC. They are one a few facilities on a demonstration project.

[DScheuf]

I've got fantastic news. I was able to get a hold of a one-year recipient award; he started during my internship.

Here it is....

In my experience most administrators at USACE know very little about ACTEDS interns and even less about the SMART program. It's likely that they will have as much to learn about the process as you. My advice is to search out other interns and get their help, they have recent first hand experience.

1. I was hired at a GS7 with expectations to move up to a GS9 after 1 year and up to GS11 after another year. I would assume this could vary depending on what your job series is going to be, and depending on your job series you will have a certain salary adjustment as well as a locality adjustment(compensates the cost of living in different cities).

2. I was hired as an ACTEDS (aka DA) intern and did have to sign a mobility agreement. Even though my SMART commitment was only 1 year, in order to keep my job as USACE I had to sign a separate mobility agreement agreeing to a two year internship and an additional two year service agreement after that for a total of 4 years. However, I did notify my HR person that under the terms of my prior contract with USACE I was only liable for 1 year. When this was all happening the SMART people said that the mobility agreement was a violation of the terms of our previous agreement and gave me the option of opting out of the program without having to repay any of the scholarship money, but seeing as I planned on staying with USACE longer than the term of the mobility agreement I chose to stay in the program.

3. I am still in phase 2 for another couple of months.

4. Before starting with USACE I spoke with my future boss (my Mentor at the time) and asked what my salary would be, he got in touch with HR and I was able to figure out my salary in that way. Although I didn't get anything in writing until I actually started.

[Guest]

When this was all happening the SMART people said that the mobility agreement was a violation of the terms of our previous agreement and gave me the option of opting out of the program without having to repay any of the scholarship money

Extremely hard to believe. What are the consequences of violating the contract with USACE?

[Guest22]

When this was all happening the SMART people said that the mobility agreement was a violation of the terms of our previous agreement and gave me the option of opting out of the program without having to repay any of the scholarship money

Extremely hard to believe. What are the consequences of violating the contract with USACE?

Not hard to believe at ALL.

Do you really think they can have you sign a contract for 1 year then say...oh WAIT nevermind, you have to stick around for 4 years or pay us back everything. Absolutely not. They have to either give you 1 year of employment or let you go. In this situation, SMART can't give you 1 year, so you have the option to leave. Perfectly logic, reasonable, and the only legal option SMART can take. You aren't a slave, they can't make you work past what you agreed.

[Guest]

When this was all happening the SMART people said that the mobility agreement was a violation of the terms of our previous agreement and gave me the option of opting out of the program without having to repay any of the scholarship money

Extremely hard to believe. What are the consequences of violating the contract with USACE?

Not hard to believe at ALL.

Do you really think they can have you sign a contract for 1 year then say...oh WAIT nevermind, you have to stick around for 4 years or pay us back everything. Absolutely not. They have to either give you 1 year of employment or let you go. In this situation, SMART can't give you 1 year, so you have the option to leave. Perfectly logic, reasonable, and the only legal option SMART can take. You aren't a slave, they can't make you work past what you agreed.

Actually, we are obligated to work for the DoD, not necessarily your SF. In the past SMART grads who were unable to be hired at their SF were assigned other places without their being able to argue about it. I have specific examples. In one case, the person was assigned to work for the SPO. So it is hard to believe that the SPO couldnt find anything for that person to do anywhere in the country rather than let him get away with all that cash Scot free.

[Guest]

When this was all happening the SMART people said that the mobility agreement was a violation of the terms of our previous agreement and gave me the option of opting out of the program without having to repay any of the scholarship money

Extremely hard to believe. What are the consequences of violating the contract with USACE?

I do still want to know the consequences of breaking the USACE contract. I doubt it is severe.

[Guest]

When this was all happening the SMART people said that the mobility agreement was a violation of the terms of our previous agreement and gave me the option of opting out of the program without having to repay any of the scholarship money

Extremely hard to believe. What are the consequences of violating the contract with USACE?

Not hard to believe at ALL.

Do you really think they can have you sign a contract for 1 year then say...oh WAIT nevermind, you have to stick around for 4 years or pay us back everything. Absolutely not. They have to either give you 1 year of employment or let you go. In this situation, SMART can't give you 1 year, so you have the option to leave. Perfectly logic, reasonable, and the only legal option SMART can take. You aren't a slave, they can't make you work past what you agreed.

Actually, this is exactly the opposite of what happened to me.

The ACTEDs offer was presented and I was told by the SMART Program if I declined it I would be financially responsible for repayment of my entire SMART scholarship. Not to mention, I had finished a PhD. At the time I accepted SMART, I was told I'd be hired as a GS-11.

The ACTEDs offer was for a GS-7 for 1 year, GS-9 for 1 year, and GS-11 for 1 year, and then GS-12 (though I understand you can not be a GS-12 and remain in ACTEDs. ACTEDs funding comes out of a central repository. If you get that far and a facility does not move you to their books, ACTEDs terminates you).

Anyway, SMART hasn't been so reasonable with me. The liaison did not understand that a contract is a contract and kept threatening me to repay the scholarship.

[Guest]

Actually, this is exactly the opposite of what happened to me.

The ACTEDs offer was presented and I was told by the SMART Program if I declined it I would be financially responsible for repayment of my entire SMART scholarship. Not to mention, I had finished a PhD. At the time I accepted SMART, I was told I'd be hired as a GS-11.

The ACTEDs offer was for a GS-7 for 1 year, GS-9 for 1 year, and GS-11 for 1 year, and then GS-12 (though I understand you can not be a GS-12 and remain in ACTEDs. ACTEDs funding comes out of a central repository. If you get that far and a facility does not move you to their books, ACTEDs terminates you).

Anyway, SMART hasn't been so reasonable with me. The liaison did not understand that a contract is a contract and kept threatening me to repay the scholarship.

It's okay. Recent history shows us that lawyering up works.

[Guest]

It's okay. Recent history shows us that lawyering up works.

Lawyering up works, definitely.

You just wish the program folks would be more respectful to someone they're trying to court into long-term careers within the DoD.

But since lawyering seems to be a recent requirement of participation in the program, perhaps they're trying to rebrand themselves as a DoD temp agency?

[Guest]

It's okay. Recent history shows us that lawyering up works.

Lawyering up works, definitely.

You just wish the program folks would be more respectful to someone they're trying to court into long-term careers within the DoD.

But since lawyering seems to be a recent requirement of participation in the program, perhaps they're trying to rebrand themselves as a DoD temp agency?

*like* Too funny.

[Guest]

The ACTEDs offer was presented and I was told by the SMART Program if I declined it I would be financially responsible for repayment of my entire SMART scholarship. Not to mention, I had finished a PhD. At the time I accepted SMART, I was told I'd be hired as a GS-11.

The ACTEDs offer was for a GS-7 for 1 year, GS-9 for 1 year, and GS-11 for 1 year, and then GS-12 (though I understand you can not be a GS-12 and remain in ACTEDs. ACTEDs funding comes out of a central repository. If you get that far and a facility does not move you to their books, ACTEDs terminates you).

Anyway, SMART hasn't been so reasonable with me. The liaison did not understand that a contract is a contract and kept threatening me to repay the scholarship.

What's the SF?

[DScheuf]

Here is all I know as of April 16; I'll try to touch on the topics addressed in this forum. Please feel free to ask me anything else.

Background: I will be graduating with a BS in mechanical engineering from the South Dakota School of Mines and Technology. The Omaha District selected me in 2010 to join their design team. While at my internship, it was quite evident that headquarters never passes down information regarding policy. Both my boss and HR contact could not tell me how I was going to be hired come May 2012. I still have yet to receive an offer letter and I am now applying for other jobs, as I do not see this situation coming out in my favor.

USACE Hiring: My mentor has been of extreme help in figuring out this situation and he recognizes the implications of contracts being violated. The only way to be hired on non-competitively is through the ACTEDS program. This requires you to sign two two-year contracts.

SMART: This was my question and their response.
Hi Heather,

Thanks for getting back to me; this situation has been frustrating. I just received confirmation from my boss that the only way to hire me into the Corps is under the ACTEDS program, which requires me to sign an additional two-year mobility contract upon my original two-year contract. Can you help me realize the implications of this? I was informed by a recipient (who started full-time at my SF during my internship) that he experienced the same troubles. He stated that he was given the option of opting out of the program without having to repay anything since SMART recognized that this additional mobility agreement was a clear violation of the terms on the contract that was signed upon entering the program.

Hi Dustin,

That is a good question. I will need to confer with your liaison and bring this up to the Stem Development Office. As soon as I have more information I will let you know.

Salary: For any engineering BS, plan on starting at GS-7 (special table) which is around $44k.

Hope all this helps.

[Guest]

Hi Dustin,

That is a good question. I will need to confer with your liaison and bring this up to the Stem Development Office. As soon as I have more information I will let you know.

Salary: For any engineering BS, plan on starting at GS-7 (special table) which is around $44k.

Hope all this helps.

Please keep us posted. I know that the STEM Development Office (new management of SMART) does things very differently than the old NPS management. As far as I am aware, only the old NPS management made such deals (leaving without having to repay). I'm very concerned to see if the new management sees it the same way, or if they frown upon the old way of doing things.

In my experience, they frowned upon the old way of doing things...

[DScheuf]

In my experience, they frowned upon the old way of doing things...

What was your experience?

[Guest]

In my experience, they frowned upon the old way of doing things...

What was your experience?

I posted it already in this thread. It was a bunch of heavy-handed threats that if I didn't take the Army's offer, I would have to pay it back. I am a PhD and expected a GS-11 offer and the Army actually offered me a GS-7 ACTEDs position.

[Guest]

In my experience, they frowned upon the old way of doing things...

What was your experience?

I posted it already in this thread. It was a bunch of heavy-handed threats that if I didn't take the Army's offer, I would have to pay it back. I am a PhD and expected a GS-11 offer and the Army actually offered me a GS-7 ACTEDs position.

It might just be your position specifically but in general PhD can get you a gs12 right out of the hole gs13 w experience

[Guest]

It might just be your position specifically but in general PhD can get you a gs12 right out of the hole gs13 w experience

I was slightly wrong. In general PhD gets you gs11 unless its a research position when it gets you gs12 eligibility. Gs13 is possible w PhD+experience. Google gs12 research engineer go to the opm page that comes up.

[gs7-phd]

It might just be your position specifically but in general PhD can get you a gs12 right out of the hole gs13 w experience

I was slightly wrong. In general PhD gets you gs11 unless its a research position when it gets you gs12 eligibility. Gs13 is possible w PhD+experience. Google gs12 research engineer go to the opm page that comes up.

Trust me, you don't have to tell me what I SHOULD have been offered... I'm fully aware of what SHOULD have been coming my way.

The part that I was trying to share, and the part I'm interested in watching play out with the US ACE, is why did the SMART program seem to think that it was acceptable to tell a scholar that if they didn't take the GS-7 offer they'd be responsible for repayment of the scholarship? That's the $200k question (literally).

I'm very curious to see if the new management begins to understand that SMART scholars signed a contractual agreement. If the DoD can't hire people full-time, there's a perfectly legitimate avenue for releasing them, and it doesn't involve asking for the scholarship to be repaid. However, as of late, the SMART Program has been asking students to repay scholarships if they choose to decline the loopholes that SMART is trying to exploit (loopholes like ACTEDs student internship programs, instead of full-time employment).

[Guest]

It might just be your position specifically but in general PhD can get you a gs12 right out of the hole gs13 w experience

I was slightly wrong. In general PhD gets you gs11 unless its a research position when it gets you gs12 eligibility. Gs13 is possible w PhD+experience. Google gs12 research engineer go to the opm page that comes up.

Trust me, you don't have to tell me what I SHOULD have been offered... I'm fully aware of what SHOULD have been coming my way.

The part that I was trying to share, and the part I'm interested in watching play out with the US ACE, is why did the SMART program seem to think that it was acceptable to tell a scholar that if they didn't take the GS-7 offer they'd be responsible for repayment of the scholarship? That's the $200k question (literally).

I'm very curious to see if the new management begins to understand that SMART scholars signed a contractual agreement. If the DoD can't hire people full-time, there's a perfectly legitimate avenue for releasing them, and it doesn't involve asking for the scholarship to be repaid. However, as of late, the SMART Program has been asking students to repay scholarships if they choose to decline the loopholes that SMART is trying to exploit (loopholes like ACTEDs student internship programs, instead of full-time employment).

I have three questions. 1) Did you discuss salary with your SF prior to signing your contract? 2) Are you at a USACE district? If so why did you take a job at a USACE district with a PhD? They only do engineering design stuff. 3) most importantly, what were the consequences of violating the ACTEDS contract?

[gs7-phd]

I have three questions. 1) Did you discuss salary with your SF prior to signing your contract? 2) Are you at a USACE district? If so why did you take a job at a USACE district with a PhD? They only do engineering design stuff. 3) most importantly, what were the consequences of violating the ACTEDS contract?

Three answers:

1) Yes. I also had emails documenting the fact.
2) No. I was regular Army. As far as I can tell, the Army borrowed the idea of ACTEDs hiring loophole from the US ACE. There are many similarities between the offer I was extended and the ACTEDs offers that the US ACE is extending, though there are some slight differences.
3) The ACTEDs contract only had a 2 year mobility agreement that was going to run concurrently with my SMART service commitment, so there was no doubling of the commitment period as I've seen mentioned in this forum. I never delved too far into breaking JUST the ACTEDs portion of the contract because

• The salary ranges were very different than what I had been anticipating. Vastly different.
• I know that ACTEDs is NOT a permanent position. It's an internship. If the facility is still under a hiring freeze at the end of the ACTEDs internship, I would have been in the exact same situation I was now, except the SMART Program wouldn't be scouring the DoD to find a place for me. I'd be on my own to quickly find employment. I have a family, and that risk is too great.
• The ACTEDs time commitment was concurrent with the SMART time commitment, so if I broke one, I'd break them both. The SMART contract was the contract I was familiar with, and had a stiffer penalty. If I had to guess, there was actually no penalty for breaking the mobility agreement of ACTEDs other than termination.

I'm following this conversation because I'm interested to see what the new SMART management is doing with US ACE folks who feel the ACTEDs offers are a breach of contract. Is SMART trying to coerce them into taking the offers (as was done with me) or are they understanding that ACTEDs is sometimes a raw deal and that the student didn't sign the SMART contract with ACTEDs in mind?

[Guest]

I have three questions. 1) Did you discuss salary with your SF prior to signing your contract? 2) Are you at a USACE district? If so why did you take a job at a USACE district with a PhD? They only do engineering design stuff. 3) most importantly, what were the consequences of violating the ACTEDS contract?

Three answers:

1) Yes. I also had emails documenting the fact.
2) No. I was regular Army. As far as I can tell, the Army borrowed the idea of ACTEDs hiring loophole from the US ACE. There are many similarities between the offer I was extended and the ACTEDs offers that the US ACE is extending, though there are some slight differences.
3) The ACTEDs contract only had a 2 year mobility agreement that was going to run concurrently with my SMART service commitment, so there was no doubling of the commitment period as I've seen mentioned in this forum. I never delved too far into breaking JUST the ACTEDs portion of the contract because

• The salary ranges were very different than what I had been anticipating. Vastly different.
• I know that ACTEDs is NOT a permanent position. It's an internship. If the facility is still under a hiring freeze at the end of the ACTEDs internship, I would have been in the exact same situation I was now, except the SMART Program wouldn't be scouring the DoD to find a place for me. I'd be on my own to quickly find employment. I have a family, and that risk is too great.
• The ACTEDs time commitment was concurrent with the SMART time commitment, so if I broke one, I'd break them both. The SMART contract was the contract I was familiar with, and had a stiffer penalty. If I had to guess, there was actually no penalty for breaking the mobility agreement of ACTEDs other than termination.

I'm following this conversation because I'm interested to see what the new SMART management is doing with US ACE folks who feel the ACTEDs offers are a breach of contract. Is SMART trying to coerce them into taking the offers (as was done with me) or are they understanding that ACTEDs is sometimes a raw deal and that the student didn't sign the SMART contract with ACTEDs in mind?

Can you let us know which SF specifically? There are quite a few across the Army. ARL?

[gs7-phd]

Can you let us know which SF specifically? There are quite a few across the Army. ARL?

Sorry, I can't. Not at this time.