Is SMART Worth It

[xkcd13]

Hey everyone!

Not to rain on your parade, but read the first few threads on the Recipient side of the forum.

SMART has reduced some of their funding. I have already revived the scholarship and I am still happy I have, regardless of some of the problems with SMART; however, these recent problems may change some of your minds about the scholarship.

Nonetheless, Good luck!

[notExpected]

Hey everyone!

Not to rain on your parade, but read the first few threads on the Recipient side of the forum.

SMART has reduced some of their funding. I have already revived the scholarship and I am still happy I have, regardless of some of the problems with SMART; however, these recent problems may change some of your minds about the scholarship.

Nonetheless, Good luck!

So basically we won't get paid for our internship (unless we are getting paid money to help with being away from home) unless we get paid by the facility we work at, correct? If that is so, that sucks but hopefully that's the only place money is reduced for us. It would be upsetting if money used to pay for school was cutout because that's what I care about the most. I guess whoever ends up being an award recipient will figure out how this all works with the new changes!

[guest3]

Bottom line here is not that they reduced funding, but that they CAN reduce funding,

Think your award is set in stone? Nope, subject to change at any time...and if you don't comply you have to pay everyrthing back. Those of us who have accepted this scholarship realize just how much they own you. Know tha' you're taking a gamble because they do NOT care about you and will use you. It looks nice up front, but once youmre in, perspectives begin to change.

Hey everyone!

Not to rain on your parade, but read the first few threads on the Recipient side of the forum.

SMART has reduced some of their funding. I have already revived the scholarship and I am still happy I have, regardless of some of the problems with SMART; however, these recent problems may change some of your minds about the scholarship.

Nonetheless, Good luck!

So basically we won't get paid for our internship (unless we are getting paid money to help with being away from home) unless we get paid by the facility we work at, correct? If that is so, that sucks but hopefully that's the only place money is reduced for us. It would be upsetting if money used to pay for school was cutout because that's what I care about the most. I guess whoever ends up being an award recipient will figure out how this all works with the new changes!

[notExpected]

Bottom line here is not that they reduced funding, but that they CAN reduce funding,

Think your award is set in stone? Nope, subject to change at any time...and if you don't comply you have to pay everyrthing back. Those of us who have accepted this scholarship realize just how much they own you. Know tha' you're taking a gamble because they do NOT care about you and will use you. It looks nice up front, but once youmre in, perspectives begin to change.

Hey everyone!

Not to rain on your parade, but read the first few threads on the Recipient side of the forum.

SMART has reduced some of their funding. I have already revived the scholarship and I am still happy I have, regardless of some of the problems with SMART; however, these recent problems may change some of your minds about the scholarship.

Nonetheless, Good luck!

So basically we won't get paid for our internship (unless we are getting paid money to help with being away from home) unless we get paid by the facility we work at, correct? If that is so, that sucks but hopefully that's the only place money is reduced for us. It would be upsetting if money used to pay for school was cutout because that's what I care about the most. I guess whoever ends up being an award recipient will figure out how this all works with the new changes!

Makes you wonder how much they really care to get the brightest students to work for them because they don't do a great job and keeping people there from the looks of it. We'll see what happens I suppose, at least I don't know if I have the chance to get anything or not yet, so I may not be stuck with that gamble. Hopefully they don't cut out much more than what they have now either.

[Scholar]

The people who post the negative are a small number compared to the amount of us that are still more than happy that we recieved this scholarship. A lot of what is going on now is what is felt to be a breach of contract to us. It would be completely different to new scholarship awards and their contract details. That being said, even with this change I still do not want out of my commitment nor am I one of the ones who wish I would have never taken the award. This is a great program. My SF really cares about me and how I'm doing. So maybe that's not the case for some of the facilities so I'll consider myself lucky in that aspect. If you have the opportunity to accept this award do not go by what you are reading on this website. When I applied I didn't know this website was here ad I'm actually glad I didn't because it isn't a good representation of what the program is capable of. Honestly when you are just applying you shouldn't know what is going on with us current scholars anyways. Because it will change. The things that are happening are not at the fault of the SPO it's higher up. So do yourselves a favor and stop reading and freaking yourselves out. If you want to know about the smart scholarship program. Contact people off of smarts facebook page and ask about their experience with the program. So maybe you'll hear a good experience. Ask people at your school who have gone through the program before. They are the people who know the best. Not this. I promise.

[Guest2]

The people who post the negative are a small number compared to the amount of us that are still more than happy that we recieved this scholarship. A lot of what is going on now is what is felt to be a breach of contract to us. It would be completely different to new scholarship awards and their contract details. That being said, even with this change I still do not want out of my commitment nor am I one of the ones who wish I would have never taken the award. This is a great program. My SF really cares about me and how I'm doing. So maybe that's not the case for some of the facilities so I'll consider myself lucky in that aspect. If you have the opportunity to accept this award do not go by what you are reading on this website. When I applied I didn't know this website was here ad I'm actually glad I didn't because it isn't a good representation of what the program is capable of. Honestly when you are just applying you shouldn't know what is going on with us current scholars anyways. Because it will change. The things that are happening are not at the fault of the SPO it's higher up. So do yourselves a favor and stop reading and freaking yourselves out. If you want to know about the smart scholarship program. Contact people off of smarts facebook page and ask about their experience with the program. So maybe you'll hear a good experience. Ask people at your school who have gone through the program before. They are the people who know the best. Not this. I promise.

I have a feeling you are the minority, not us. Yes, the scholarship is generous, yes, many of us will still re-agree to the terms. But the fact is, THEY breached the contract, and there isn't a single person who isn't upset about it.

The difference is, some of us actually had better options that we turned down for this scholarship (they weren't better before, but now they are). You may be one of the people who didn't have any other options, but I guarantee you, our complaints are warranted.

Yes, good experiences happen. But the fact is, it's luck. You can't trust SMART to take care of you. You can only hope you get lucky. Worst case scenario, you're still getting your $25k/yr. This is still a good program for many people. Those comparing similar offers may want to reconsider though.

[Guest]

"But the fact is, THEY breached the contract, and there isn't a single person who isn't upset about it."

That is THE problem. They made promises in writing (at which point you sign a contract with them) and then invited you to Orientation where they repeated those exact same promises. Then, when you were committed to a multi-year contract, they changed the terms.

My sponsoring facility (SF) is great, the SFs didn't have anything to do with the removal of the internship support payments. It's the SMART program office (SPO). The SPO pays you while you are in school and (used to pay for the internship). As soon as I am out of school I won't have to deal with SPO anymore. My SF will be paying me then.

As future applicants I am sure you heard about, and read about, the $1200/week stipend...well that stipend is now zero. If it wasn't for this forum you might not have found out about that "little change" until after you were at Orientation, after you had signed your contracts.

It's still a good program, and I am not going to leave it...but, the shine has now worn off. I'm realizing more and more that I am totally at their mercy and they can do what ever they want to me.

[Guest3]

My sponsoring facility was great too! They loved me!

Until it came time to actually hire me... Then they put forth an offer that was 30% lower than what I had discussed with the SF HR specialist. I turned to the SMART Program for protection, and all I got was "take it or you will have to pay the scholarship money back".

The SF knew I couldn't reject the offer once I was so far into the program.

[Guest24567]

My sponsoring facility was great too! They loved me!

Until it came time to actually hire me... Then they put forth an offer that was 30% lower than what I had discussed with the SF HR specialist. I turned to the SMART Program for protection, and all I got was "take it or you will have to pay the scholarship money back".

The SF knew I couldn't reject the offer once I was so far into the program.

-----GULP!--------

[smart_hopeful]

My sponsoring facility was great too! They loved me!

Until it came time to actually hire me... Then they put forth an offer that was 30% lower than what I had discussed with the SF HR specialist. I turned to the SMART Program for protection, and all I got was "take it or you will have to pay the scholarship money back".

This, if I'm offered the scholarship, is the one concern that might actually make me turn it down. I'm not so worried about stipend changes, because basically regardless of what they do I'll still be making considerably more than I do as a TA.

But I'd hate to show up for work after graduation and be told "Welcome aboard! Here's your desk and here's your $15k/year paycheck." - which in principle it sounds like they are able to do. Since I'm only applying for about about a year and a half of funding, I don't think they'd want to screw me over since I'd then leave the second I was free, and the interested SF made it clear that they were looking for permanent employees. But who knows?

I think I'm not going to just discuss salary levels. I'm going to ask for a firm offer in writing. I'm curious to know if anyone else has tried to get something in writing, and if they were successful. Either way, if SMART and DoD aren't going to treat their students well, they can expect that the program will rapidly crater as a source of talent.

[daGhost]

If you want to know about the smart scholarship program. Contact people off of smarts facebook page and ask about their experience with the program..

What is the name of this facebook page? I can't find it!

My sponsoring facility was great too! They loved me!

Until it came time to actually hire me... Then they put forth an offer that was 30% lower than what I had discussed with the SF HR specialist. I turned to the SMART Program for protection, and all I got was "take it or you will have to pay the scholarship money back".

The SF knew I couldn't reject the offer once I was so far into the program.

And wow, this does scare me a little bit. Sure the government is trying to get quality workers at a very cheap price but that doesn't make me believe they truly care to keep bright individuals. Especially after reading people say how a bunch of them kind of sat around after getting hired... Makes me skeptical if the scholarship is worth it. I could live with either a decent paycheck or interesting work, but if I got neither I think I would go insane working for them. At least I don't know if I will nail the scholarship at this point, but i am nervous. I would definitely like to talk to a few people who have gotten this scholarship and put in their time after school to hear what they say in more detail about the experience.

[Guest3]

This, if I'm offered the scholarship, is the one concern that might actually make me turn it down. I'm not so worried about stipend changes, because basically regardless of what they do I'll still be making considerably more than I do as a TA.

But I'd hate to show up for work after graduation and be told "Welcome aboard! Here's your desk and here's your $15k/year paycheck." - which in principle it sounds like they are able to do. Since I'm only applying for about about a year and a half of funding, I don't think they'd want to screw me over since I'd then leave the second I was free, and the interested SF made it clear that they were looking for permanent employees. But who knows?

I think I'm not going to just discuss salary levels. I'm going to ask for a firm offer in writing. I'm curious to know if anyone else has tried to get something in writing, and if they were successful. Either way, if SMART and DoD aren't going to treat their students well, they can expect that the program will rapidly crater as a source of talent.

Good idea. I wish I had done that before I started too far down the road.

But the sad thing is, even when the SF was giving me the lowball offer, they continually said "we want long-term, permanent employees". Don't really believe them when they give you that lipservice. You'll learn a LOT by talking to previous SMART students stationed AT THAT PARTICULAR SF. If they hired on easily, you may have found one of the golden SFs. But I was the one of the first SMART students selected by my SF, and they treated us all like garbage (there was more than one). The SMART Program will ALWAYS side with the SF.

[Scholar]

I have a feeling you are the minority, not us. Yes, the scholarship is generous, yes, many of us will still re-agree to the terms. But the fact is, THEY breached the contract, and there isn't a single person who isn't upset about it.

The difference is, some of us actually had better options that we turned down for this scholarship (they weren't better before, but now they are). You may be one of the people who didn't have any other options, but I guarantee you, our complaints are warranted.

Yes, good experiences happen. But the fact is, it's luck. You can't trust SMART to take care of you. You can only hope you get lucky. Worst case scenario, you're still getting your $25k/yr. This is still a good program for many people. Those comparing similar offers may want to reconsider though.

Okay, if I am the minority then where are the rest of us? You know there are about 1,000 SMART scholars total now, so neither one of us are going to be a majority or minority here. There fact is that people don't post about things that are going well. They only bring out the negative. You can barely find a positive thing on the recipient side of this forum really. And yes the fact is that they breached the contract, I said that. And I didn't say I wasn't upset about it as well. My facility is in Honolulu, so this cut sucks. But instead of posting about how terrible the program is because of that, I'm talking to my facility to see if there is anything they will do to help out and just going on. SMART isn't going to change it back and I'll just have to figure out the money this summer. A plus is that it's less money to be taxable.

And you're right, I didn't have anything better that I turned down for this. I was going to school on a just scholarship that covered almost everything before I applied. I wanted to get the SMART scholarship to work for the DoD and serve my country. So I don't know..maybe that just makes me such a bad person huh? Most people would be thankful to have one opportunity like this and if you had the opportunity to turn down something else for this and in return you get to serve your country you could think of it like that? But I guess that isn't good enough for you. I'm from a military family and I'm a marine girlfriend. So it's not all about the money to me. This is my passion.

What is the name of this facebook page? I can't find it!

It's just called Smart Scholarship Program. I just looked and now i'm not sure if you can see the names of the people who liked it or not. I know they have a link to their youtube page that has video interviews with scholars as well. Let me know if you can't find it still or if you have any questions for me.

[Guest2]

I have a feeling you are the minority, not us. Yes, the scholarship is generous, yes, many of us will still re-agree to the terms. But the fact is, THEY breached the contract, and there isn't a single person who isn't upset about it.

The difference is, some of us actually had better options that we turned down for this scholarship (they weren't better before, but now they are). You may be one of the people who didn't have any other options, but I guarantee you, our complaints are warranted.

Yes, good experiences happen. But the fact is, it's luck. You can't trust SMART to take care of you. You can only hope you get lucky. Worst case scenario, you're still getting your $25k/yr. This is still a good program for many people. Those comparing similar offers may want to reconsider though.

Okay, if I am the minority then where are the rest of us? You know there are about 1,000 SMART scholars total now, so neither one of us are going to be a majority or minority here. There fact is that people don't post about things that are going well. They only bring out the negative. You can barely find a positive thing on the recipient side of this forum really. And yes the fact is that they breached the contract, I said that. And I didn't say I wasn't upset about it as well. My facility is in Honolulu, so this cut sucks. But instead of posting about how terrible the program is because of that, I'm talking to my facility to see if there is anything they will do to help out and just going on. SMART isn't going to change it back and I'll just have to figure out the money this summer. A plus is that it's less money to be taxable.

And you're right, I didn't have anything better that I turned down for this. I was going to school on a just scholarship that covered almost everything before I applied. I wanted to get the SMART scholarship to work for the DoD and serve my country. So I don't know..maybe that just makes me such a bad person huh? Most people would be thankful to have one opportunity like this and if you had the opportunity to turn down something else for this and in return you get to serve your country you could think of it like that? But I guess that isn't good enough for you. I'm from a military family and I'm a marine girlfriend. So it's not all about the money to me. This is my passion.

What is the name of this facebook page? I can't find it!

It's just called Smart Scholarship Program. I just looked and now i'm not sure if you can see the names of the people who liked it or not. I know they have a link to their youtube page that has video interviews with scholars as well. Let me know if you can't find it still or if you have any questions for me.

Well thank you for making the point of mine - where are the other scholars who agree with you? Certainly not voicing there opinions. That is the definition of minority. Furthermore, of the two opposing views in our argument, one of us is going to be the minority and one of us is going to be the majority. That's how statistics work. So your statement that "neither of us is the minority or the majority" is simply factually inaccurate at the most simplistic level.

On another note, of course we won't see every single SMART scholar represented on this forum. However, it is fair to assume that those on this forum are a relatively reasonable sample of the entire group, as the sample in this forum are not separated from the group in any fundamental way (except maybe ability to search the internet).

I never said you were a bad person. Also, your argument about wanting to serve your country is useless rhetoric.

My situation is I have an awesome SF that I was connected with before the SMART program. We looked into post-education hiring options. They recommended the SMART program and I applied and here we are. I too am very passionate about my job and my country - however, I would have had an employment opportunity at the exact same place, SMART or no SMART.

The only thing this is about is SMART breaching their agreement. I simply DO NOT want to be a part of a program that requires so much of me, yet has no obligations in return. Even if I knew that this was the ONLY change they would make, I would probably be okay with it.

The fact is, that this introduced a HIGH level of uncertainty where previously there was NO uncertainty.

I don't want to work for a government/program/group of people who think it's okay to lie to me and abuse contractual agreement. That's all it is. It's not so much about the benefits, it's not so much about the money, it's about the fact that they lied. And even though the benefits are still acceptable and good - I cannot continue without first resolving the issue that I have been lied too and mistreated. If there is a way to resolve that without returning my funding (I'm not sure that there is) then I would be okay with that - because it's more about the principle to me than the money (although the money is a factor, yes.)

[guesta]

What SMART is doing is really bad, I totally understand. But I couldn't help but think that they do this simply because they have no other choice. In the past two years I have heard the funding for many government-sponsored fellowships/internships programs were cut, and some programs simply disappears. SMART is a strong program and even though it's not going anywhere, I believe its funding are also being reduced. I don't think protesting would do much, because the money has to come from somewhere. In this economy, I imaging that if the story of SMART scholars' internship support being cut gets on the main newspaper, we simply won't get any sympathy from the majority of people because of the dire financial situation for everyone.

Bottom line, do what you can, but prepare to take the blow, count your blessings, and move on.

[Guest2]

What SMART is doing is really bad, I totally understand. But I couldn't help but think that they do this simply because they have no other choice. In the past two years I have heard the funding for many government-sponsored fellowships/internships programs were cut, and some programs simply disappears. SMART is a strong program and even though it's not going anywhere, I believe its funding are also being reduced. I don't think protesting would do much, because the money has to come from somewhere. In this economy, I imaging that if the story of SMART scholars' internship support being cut gets on the main newspaper, we simply won't get any sympathy from the majority of people because of the dire financial situation for everyone.

Bottom line, do what you can, but prepare to take the blow, count your blessings, and move on.

Unfortunately, this too is false (but there was no way for you to know that)

At orientation, the head of the entire SMART Program Office told us that each year, the funds were secured for all expenses for all the applicants.

So for example, if you were accepted in 2010, all your funding was put in an "account" in 2010 for all the years of your award. They don't have to scale everyone back if their funding is cut. If their funding is cut, they have to just scale back the NEW people they take in.

So they are definitely, absolutely, CHOOSING to reallocate the money from our internship support payments. It's not because the money isn't there - it's because they WANT to spend it on something else instead.

That's not okay. Promises are promises. Especially when it's the government and your future employer.

[Guest]

What SMART is doing is really bad, I totally understand. But I couldn't help but think that they do this simply because they have no other choice. In the past two years I have heard the funding for many government-sponsored fellowships/internships programs were cut, and some programs simply disappears. SMART is a strong program and even though it's not going anywhere, I believe its funding are also being reduced. I don't think protesting would do much, because the money has to come from somewhere. In this economy, I imaging that if the story of SMART scholars' internship support being cut gets on the main newspaper, we simply won't get any sympathy from the majority of people because of the dire financial situation for everyone.

Bottom line, do what you can, but prepare to take the blow, count your blessings, and move on.

Unfortunately, this too is false (but there was no way for you to know that)

At orientation, the head of the entire SMART Program Office told us that each year, the funds were secured for all expenses for all the applicants.

So for example, if you were accepted in 2010, all your funding was put in an "account" in 2010 for all the years of your award. They don't have to scale everyone back if their funding is cut. If their funding is cut, they have to just scale back the NEW people they take in.

So they are definitely, absolutely, CHOOSING to reallocate the money from our internship support payments. It's not because the money isn't there - it's because they WANT to spend it on something else instead.

That's not okay. Promises are promises. Especially when it's the government and your future employer.

I also vaguely remember statements implying that our funding was secured.

[Scholar]

Apparently Guest2 just knows everything about SMART and we can't say anything without getting our asses jumped on or a pointless argument started. I just hate that because we are whining about internship payments getting cut people applying for the program are reconsidering it. I just feel like all the legal action and everything people keep talking about is a waste of time. It sucks. Yeah. But it doesn't make me feel like they are going to just keep changing stuff up on us constantly. We agreeded to comply with all handbook policies including anything that updates from the time we sign on. And internship guidelines are in the handbook and are now updated and we must comply with them. You checked the box on the contract and signed it. I'm sorry. But get over it, you're not going to get anywhere fighting with the government..have you not learned anything from being in the program yet?

[Guest]

Apparently Guest2 just knows everything about SMART and we can't say anything without getting our asses jumped on or a pointless argument started. I just hate that because we are whining about internship payments getting cut people applying for the program are reconsidering it. I just feel like all the legal action and everything people keep talking about is a waste of time. It sucks. Yeah. But it doesn't make me feel like they are going to just keep changing stuff up on us constantly. We agreeded to comply with all handbook policies including anything that updates from the time we sign on. And internship guidelines are in the handbook and are now updated and we must comply with them. You checked the box on the contract and signed it. I'm sorry. But get over it, you're not going to get anywhere fighting with the government..have you not learned anything from being in the program yet?

Its good that they are reconsidering. This is not an awesome free bunch of money that students should jump for joy just to have the opportunity for. This is an employment contract dressed up like an award. Recipients are chosen from the highly qualified so its not like they need jobs. If SMART doesn't pay well enough then noone in their right mind would take it. There are several other graduate level fellowships and hundreds of undergraduate scholarships for the highly qualified which are free awards. That's why I feel duped. I went for the one with the moat benefits. Now it has less but my career is still compromised. Applicants should see SMART for what it is, an impotent recruiting scheme resulting in indentured servants. To feel different suggests you have a low opinion of your value. Your comments also sound very defeatist. Why are you going to sit there and let someone run you over with a truck and say...well they are the govt so they can do that and besides I'm so grateful for the mediocre award that I don't mind anyway because I couldn't do any better. Come on! You were valuable enough to get SMART so you are valuable enough to get what you deserve...respect at the least! Applicants should simply be aware of the possible land mines in the field into which they are so eager to trod.

[RPI CSE]

Apparently Guest2 just knows everything about SMART and we can't say anything without getting our asses jumped on or a pointless argument started. I just hate that because we are whining about internship payments getting cut people applying for the program are reconsidering it. I just feel like all the legal action and everything people keep talking about is a waste of time. It sucks. Yeah. But it doesn't make me feel like they are going to just keep changing stuff up on us constantly. We agreeded to comply with all handbook policies including anything that updates from the time we sign on. And internship guidelines are in the handbook and are now updated and we must comply with them. You checked the box on the contract and signed it. I'm sorry. But get over it, you're not going to get anywhere fighting with the government..have you not learned anything from being in the program yet?

Its good that they are reconsidering. This is not an awesome free bunch of money that students should jump for joy just to have the opportunity for. This is an employment contract dressed up like an award. Recipients are chosen from the highly qualified so its not like they need jobs. If SMART doesn't pay well enough then noone in their right mind would take it. There are several other graduate level fellowships and hundreds of undergraduate scholarships for the highly qualified which are free awards. That's why I feel duped. I went for the one with the moat benefits. Now it has less but my career is still compromised. Applicants should see SMART for what it is, an impotent recruiting scheme resulting in indentured servants. To feel different suggests you have a low opinion of your value. Your comments also sound very defeatist. Why are you going to sit there and let someone run you over with a truck and say...well they are the govt so they can do that and besides I'm so grateful for the mediocre award that I don't mind anyway because I couldn't do any better. Come on! You were valuable enough to get SMART so you are valuable enough to get what you deserve...respect at the least! Applicants should simply be aware of the possible land mines in the field into which they are so eager to trod.

If this ends up being a horribly biased post, my apologies, I am attempting to sit at a neutral ground and be reasonable about the scholarship, something I feel many discussing it have failed to do.

Scholar, you are acting the same way as guest2, but on the other extreme, I do hope you see that. As for people reconsidering the program, that is a good thing. There needs to be transparency with everything that is going on so people will be able to make an intelligent and informed decision. If someone does not want the possibility to exist that they will have their contract changed, well then they should be aware that contracts have changed in the past. And why is the legal action a waste of time? Is it a waste of time to try and fight for the pay of active duty military members when it gets cut? Or when someone is not being treated fairly, should no one stick up for them? Everything we do is a demonstration to SMART that we will not be pushed around without a fight, we will not be lied to and be okay with it. Please consider the old phrase "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." It is important to realize that if they can do this, they can do so much more. Not that they will, that is not a guarantee, but that they can.

As for "comply with all handbook policies including anything that updates from the time we sign on," the updates made need to be reasonable. They could not tell us that we are not getting a stipend anymore because it is too much money for them to pay, that would not be reasonable. And the 1,200 was promised in more than just the handbook. It was stated at orientation and I believe mentioned in a lot of paperwork. Removing a large source of funding is not an update, it is an out of contract change. Updates include policies and wording and possible changes to reporting, not this.

And "But get over it, you're not going to get anywhere fighting with the government," is not one of the smartest things I have heard. Did you know that the Government at one point said that people could be slaves? Did you know at one point the Government said that alcohol was banned everywhere in the US? Did you know that at one point the Government said that women could not vote and that married women had no rights to property? My apologies to resorting to hyperbole, but it does make the point much easier to get across and I am admitting it is a bit of an exaggeration. The point is that we can change things that aren't right, we can fight for the right to have promises kept.

As for Guest, while there are many other awards out there, many of them still do not match SMART, and getting into SMART is not a guarantee that you will be able to get the same money from other sources. And to call the program indentured servitude is a bit crude don't you think? Yes, it is a scholarship for service and we do have a commitment made to the government, but I would not call this indentured servitude. Indentured servants were not getting paid to go and do something that would normally cost them money, and getting that paid for. We are not paying the money we have been given back, we get to keep it. Then once we begin work, we get a real salary! A bit better than having your boat ticket paid for, then owing a man years of your life, at no additional cost to him, to pay back the boat ticket. Maybe you were doing the same hyperbole I was, if so I am just making it a bit clearer.

I do agree though, that everyone should have the rights to know what is going on! Although I still would not call this a mediocre award, I am getting approximately 44,000 just in tuition a year. Not true for all, but you can make it worth it!

Now to show someone losing a lot because of this. A friend I met at orientation accepted this scholarship because it was the only way to get back to school and get a PHD. She has 2 kids and a husband and is the major bread-winner for the family. She did all the math and found out if she saved enough by living cheap and not getting any of the extra things that she would want (new tv, new car, ect) she would be able to make this work, barely. She is going to be working 4 internships over her 5 year school period. She has now been told that she is getting approximately $50,000 less over the next 5 years than she had signed up for. I don't know what her situation is with regards to being paid by her base, but she was careful, she planned for everything, and now she is losing a ton of money and might not be able to afford to continue with this program.

I on the other hand, am losing approximately $21,000 due to my two internships, but will be getting $20,000 over the next two years from my school in scholarships that I had put on hold due to the $5,000 cap. I would not quit the program over that $1,000. But I might leave the program after I finish my commitment, due to the fact that I have been lied to and I would rather not keep dealing with that.

I hope I have been at least somewhat neutral, pointing out both sides, feel free to make comments or ask questions, I check the boards frequently and am always up for a friendly discussion.

[Guest]

As for Guest, while there are many other awards out there, many of them still do not match SMART, and getting into SMART is not a guarantee that you will be able to get the same money from other sources. And to call the program indentured servitude is a bit crude don't you think?

Yes, it was intended to be crude. At the PhD level, there are many opportunities for highly qualified graduates. Namely, top-tier university tenure track positions offer 10-20%+ more salary with no commitment. Also, since the SF labs are going to be less motivated to publish like crazy, PhD graduates can actually ruin their careers by working for the labs if they don't get to publish frequently enough. The only reason this scholarship was worth it was the $57000/yr during school. STEM PhDs almost always have their tuition paid for due to a GSR/GRA or TA position with their advisor. They also get paid for those things. If they want more, NDSEG, Jack Kent Cooke, NASA, School department fellowships, NSF, and many others offer 35000-50000/yr with all the same selection requirements as SMART. The only reason to take SMART is the large pay benefits as a student, not later as an employee. Now those are gone, so this scholarship is worth less than all those others because it pays about the same and has contractual obligations. So maybe my reference to indentured servitude is not exactly correct, but it is derogatory and has the same feel to me anyway. My future options are severely compromised and I'm not even getting the compensation for which I gave up those options.

I do agree though, that everyone should have the rights to know what is going on! Although I still would not call this a mediocre award, I am getting approximately 44,000 just in tuition a year. Not true for all, but you can make it worth it!

Again, if you are at the graduate level, there's no reason your tuition can't be paid for in full by an advisor. If you are at the undergraduate level, I hesitate to even guess how many thousands of scholarships are available to pay for tuition. It sounds like you had a good number of them to start with.

Now to show someone losing a lot because of this. A friend I met at orientation accepted this scholarship because it was the only way to get back to school and get a PHD. She has 2 kids and a husband and is the major bread-winner for the family. She did all the math and found out if she saved enough by living cheap and not getting any of the extra things that she would want (new tv, new car, ect) she would be able to make this work, barely. She is going to be working 4 internships over her 5 year school period. She has now been told that she is getting approximately $50,000 less over the next 5 years than she had signed up for. I don't know what her situation is with regards to being paid by her base, but she was careful, she planned for everything, and now she is losing a ton of money and might not be able to afford to continue with this program.

Great example! I am similar. I have a wife and two children who depend on the SMART money, including the internship support payments. I don't know how I am going to move my family and still support them at $7000 less than I planned for this year.

I on the other hand, am losing approximately $21,000 due to my two internships, but will be getting $20,000 over the next two years from my school in scholarships that I had put on hold due to the $5,000 cap. I would not quit the program over that $1,000. But I might leave the program after I finish my commitment, due to the fact that I have been lied to and I would rather not keep dealing with that.

It's awesome that you have other scholarships. But, OSG dropped this bomb on us WAY after most scholarship applications are due for that same year. Also, most advanced PhD level are ineligible for scholarships or fellowships because they are too close to graduation. In addition, that university funding I mentioned is usually not available to students who have their own funding. So the lift of outside funding limit only helps some of the students, not all, not me.

I hope I have been at least somewhat neutral, pointing out both sides, feel free to make comments or ask questions, I check the boards frequently and am always up for a friendly discussion.

I think you did a good job trying to be neutral.

[Guest2]

Unfortunately your situation is not the same as mine.

I receive approximately $5000/yr in tuition payments, and I will not be recovering much of the money in scholarships as I alreadyy declined ALL my scholarships over $5000 and they are not renewable. Furthermore it is too late to reapply.

So beyond just the principle of being misled by the SMART program, this internship support payment was a primary benefit when I signed up. The cash award and the support payments were the two things that made it worth it. So this is quite a blow in terms of expected income. The only way I will get closer to cutting it even is if my SF offers to pay me.

Apparently Guest2 just knows everything about SMART and we can't say anything without getting our asses jumped on or a pointless argument started. I just hate that because we are whining about internship payments getting cut people applying for the program are reconsidering it. I just feel like all the legal action and everything people keep talking about is a waste of time. It sucks. Yeah. But it doesn't make me feel like they are going to just keep changing stuff up on us constantly. We agreeded to comply with all handbook policies including anything that updates from the time we sign on. And internship guidelines are in the handbook and are now updated and we must comply with them. You checked the box on the contract and signed it. I'm sorry. But get over it, you're not going to get anywhere fighting with the government..have you not learned anything from being in the program yet?

Its good that they are reconsidering. This is not an awesome free bunch of money that students should jump for joy just to have the opportunity for. This is an employment contract dressed up like an award. Recipients are chosen from the highly qualified so its not like they need jobs. If SMART doesn't pay well enough then noone in their right mind would take it. There are several other graduate level fellowships and hundreds of undergraduate scholarships for the highly qualified which are free awards. That's why I feel duped. I went for the one with the moat benefits. Now it has less but my career is still compromised. Applicants should see SMART for what it is, an impotent recruiting scheme resulting in indentured servants. To feel different suggests you have a low opinion of your value. Your comments also sound very defeatist. Why are you going to sit there and let someone run you over with a truck and say...well they are the govt so they can do that and besides I'm so grateful for the mediocre award that I don't mind anyway because I couldn't do any better. Come on! You were valuable enough to get SMART so you are valuable enough to get what you deserve...respect at the least! Applicants should simply be aware of the possible land mines in the field into which they are so eager to trod.

If this ends up being a horribly biased post, my apologies, I am attempting to sit at a neutral ground and be reasonable about the scholarship, something I feel many discussing it have failed to do.

Scholar, you are acting the same way as guest2, but on the other extreme, I do hope you see that. As for people reconsidering the program, that is a good thing. There needs to be transparency with everything that is going on so people will be able to make an intelligent and informed decision. If someone does not want the possibility to exist that they will have their contract changed, well then they should be aware that contracts have changed in the past. And why is the legal action a waste of time? Is it a waste of time to try and fight for the pay of active duty military members when it gets cut? Or when someone is not being treated fairly, should no one stick up for them? Everything we do is a demonstration to SMART that we will not be pushed around without a fight, we will not be lied to and be okay with it. Please consider the old phrase "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." It is important to realize that if they can do this, they can do so much more. Not that they will, that is not a guarantee, but that they can.

As for "comply with all handbook policies including anything that updates from the time we sign on," the updates made need to be reasonable. They could not tell us that we are not getting a stipend anymore because it is too much money for them to pay, that would not be reasonable. And the 1,200 was promised in more than just the handbook. It was stated at orientation and I believe mentioned in a lot of paperwork. Removing a large source of funding is not an update, it is an out of contract change. Updates include policies and wording and possible changes to reporting, not this.

And "But get over it, you're not going to get anywhere fighting with the government," is not one of the smartest things I have heard. Did you know that the Government at one point said that people could be slaves? Did you know at one point the Government said that alcohol was banned everywhere in the US? Did you know that at one point the Government said that women could not vote and that married women had no rights to property? My apologies to resorting to hyperbole, but it does make the point much easier to get across and I am admitting it is a bit of an exaggeration. The point is that we can change things that aren't right, we can fight for the right to have promises kept.

As for Guest, while there are many other awards out there, many of them still do not match SMART, and getting into SMART is not a guarantee that you will be able to get the same money from other sources. And to call the program indentured servitude is a bit crude don't you think? Yes, it is a scholarship for service and we do have a commitment made to the government, but I would not call this indentured servitude. Indentured servants were not getting paid to go and do something that would normally cost them money, and getting that paid for. We are not paying the money we have been given back, we get to keep it. Then once we begin work, we get a real salary! A bit better than having your boat ticket paid for, then owing a man years of your life, at no additional cost to him, to pay back the boat ticket. Maybe you were doing the same hyperbole I was, if so I am just making it a bit clearer.

I do agree though, that everyone should have the rights to know what is going on! Although I still would not call this a mediocre award, I am getting approximately 44,000 just in tuition a year. Not true for all, but you can make it worth it!

Now to show someone losing a lot because of this. A friend I met at orientation accepted this scholarship because it was the only way to get back to school and get a PHD. She has 2 kids and a husband and is the major bread-winner for the family. She did all the math and found out if she saved enough by living cheap and not getting any of the extra things that she would want (new tv, new car, ect) she would be able to make this work, barely. She is going to be working 4 internships over her 5 year school period. She has now been told that she is getting approximately $50,000 less over the next 5 years than she had signed up for. I don't know what her situation is with regards to being paid by her base, but she was careful, she planned for everything, and now she is losing a ton of money and might not be able to afford to continue with this program.

I on the other hand, am losing approximately $21,000 due to my two internships, but will be getting $20,000 over the next two years from my school in scholarships that I had put on hold due to the $5,000 cap. I would not quit the program over that $1,000. But I might leave the program after I finish my commitment, due to the fact that I have been lied to and I would rather not keep dealing with that.

I hope I have been at least somewhat neutral, pointing out both sides, feel free to make comments or ask questions, I check the boards frequently and am always up for a friendly discussion.

[smart_hopeful]

Yes, it was intended to be crude. At the PhD level, there are many opportunities for highly qualified graduates. Namely, top-tier university tenure track positions offer 10-20%+ more salary with no commitment. Also, since the SF labs are going to be less motivated to publish like crazy, PhD graduates can actually ruin their careers by working for the labs if they don't get to publish frequently enough. The only reason this scholarship was worth it was the $57000/yr during school. STEM PhDs almost always have their tuition paid for due to a GSR/GRA or TA position with their advisor. They also get paid for those things. If they want more, NDSEG, Jack Kent Cooke, NASA, School department fellowships, NSF, and many others offer 35000-50000/yr with all the same selection requirements as SMART. The only reason to take SMART is the large pay benefits as a student, not later as an employee. Now those are gone, so this scholarship is worth less than all those others because it pays about the same and has contractual obligations. So maybe my reference to indentured servitude is not exactly correct, but it is derogatory and has the same feel to me anyway. My future options are severely compromised and I'm not even getting the compensation for which I gave up those options.

This is all true as far as it goes, but in a lot of cases that isn't very far. For many STEM fields it's true that tenure-track positions offer more money, in the same sense that winning the lottery offers more money. The number of tenure-track positions is smaller than the number of new Ph.D. graduates by at least an order of magnitude. Maybe two. For most people in my field, permanent academic employment is a pipe dream. Industry employment is not so hard to get, but in some ways we're over-trained and under-experienced so it's not trivial either.

So for me, SMART is less about the money as a student and more about the job after. Obviously this does not excuse SMART's recent appalling behavior in the least. It is to promise/warn (depending on your perspective about life in a government lab) that applicants should probably think of SMART as a career-determining job program and not as a scholarship program. Treating it as a scholarship program has suddenly become much more risky given the recent developments. Frankly it lessens my confidence in SMART as a career program as well.

[empty]

As another current Scholar, I just want to go on record that I firmly support the notions of RPI.

I support those who recognize it is a breach of contract (that could potentially happen again) and take the opportunity to leave the SMART program without repaying (as is there right when a contract is substantially altered).

I also support those who stay because they sincerely believe that they are in the best position for their personal situation (be that the current SMART program or just the opportunity to work for their SF).


People currently applying need to be aware of the past and current status of the program and hearing all opinions, no matter how extreme, are important.

[SMART SCHOLAR 2009]

To put it succinctly for the people who have applied for this year, the problem for many of us current SMART scholars is that we realistically now cannot afford to do our internships. If we don't do our internships we default on SMART and owe the Office of the Secretary of Defense all the $$$ we've been given thus far. Also, if we default with SMART, it's pretty much equivalent to dropping out of school because by the rules we've had to turn down any funding that was there before accepting the scholarship.