The Unofficial SMART Scholarship Forum

by **2012_cohort** » Sat Jan 23, 2016 11:49 pm

Guest wrote:Who? Seriously, WHO? Are you talking about DARPA? AFRL? The DoD employs 742,000 civilians. DARPA is 240 employees. AFRL is about 3000 civilians. There are some cool places to work in the DoD, it's just that they're a tiny percentage of the overall organization. If you think having "DoD" on your resume is synonymous with "DARPA" you're deluding yourself.

NSA. Which isn't where I work, I hasten to say, but I come into contact with a lot of them. Certainly though, they're quite unusual in terms of the level of the technical skill of the work compared to the rest of DoD. As you mention, the exceptions are typically small in number (though they do exist and I work for one of them). Conversely most of the actual STEM work done for the U.S. military is contracted out to Lockheed, Boeing, General Dynamics, etc.

Guest wrote:All of the resume nonsense is really a moot point anyway, because any potential employer worth a damn (in CS anyway) is going to have several proficiency exams lined up for you before you even get a f2f interview. My experience in the DoD absolutely did NOT prepare me for this, and if I had not spent countless hours working on my own projects, I seriously doubt I would have been able to get a good job afterward. It's not an exaggeration to say that I learned more in the first 2 weeks at a private sector job than I learned in Phase 2 of the SMART program.

My field is a physical science, not CS, so it's a somewhat different kettle of fish. Proficiency exams aren't really something we do. Your demonstrated accomplishments are what matters, whether that's grad school publications or working on major projects in a "real job" setting, etc. You can rack up some of those in DoD, depending on SF. Defense contractors especially like to see those qualities in someone with technical experience in a DoD setting. But skill atrophy is a real concern, which is why I tend to lean toward the "get in, get some experience, get out" approach in most cases.

Guest wrote:That's really a case by case thing. I don't necessarily think that the SMART program is a bad deal in terms of the benefits of the program. It's just that the DoD is not what they make themselves out to be. Personally, I was pretty depressed when I learned what it's really like. Put it this way - I'm never surprised when I get a new notification (every few months) that my PII has been part of another data breech. I've seen the people who are supposed to be defending our information.

No argument there.

by **Guest** » Sat Jan 23, 2016 1:07 pm

Guest wrote:I actually knew some really smart, capable guys when I worked for the Air Force. I mean, they don't work there NOW, obviously, because they left as soon as their time was up. Like anyone with any amount of actual skill and self respect would. I'm just saying that there are a lot of really skilled people who spend a couple years in the DoD. But the vast majority of people who spend more than 4 or 5 years are just terrible. And their level of douchebaggery seems to increase exponentially with each additional year thereafter.

Yep, exactly the same thing in Navy labs. I guess the culture/system/beaurocracy just wears people down at the end, even the initially motivated/good intentioned ones. I'm strongly considering not serving my time, any idea of the actually consequences?

by **Guest** » Sat Jan 23, 2016 12:18 pm

I actually knew some really smart, capable guys when I worked for the Air Force. I mean, they don't work there NOW, obviously, because they left as soon as their time was up. Like anyone with any amount of actual skill and self respect would. I'm just saying that there are a lot of really skilled people who spend a couple years in the DoD. But the vast majority of people who spend more than 4 or 5 years are just terrible. And their level of douchebaggery seems to increase exponentially with each additional year thereafter.

by **Sven7** » Sat Jan 16, 2016 9:05 am

I would be very dubious of anyone who likes "working" in the government. They're usually the type that have very little to offer their profession, yet they desperately want a job with a title that sounds impressive. They want to feel important, but they don't want to work. My job in the Air Force sounds impressive on paper. But in reality, most of us just sit around talking or wasting time on the internet. I don't know anyone at my sf that could actually get a job somewhere else if they wanted to. I doubt I could at this point, but I still have another year to prepare so hopefully I'll be able to line something up and get out here. As long as I can make it another year, which I sometimes doubt. I don't think I would say that I regret taking the scholarship at this point, but I know that working for the DoD is definitely not my idea of a career. It's more like a welfare program for people who suck at their jobs.

by **Guest** » Sun Jan 10, 2016 10:37 am

2012_cohort wrote:
You don't have to spend the 10 years. A STEM degree, a clearance, and a couple years experience in DoD can look very good on a resume. It's often way ahead of Generic Grad Student #29435 with no employment experience. At least one famously math/CS-heavy DoD agency is internally notorious for hemorrhaging talent specifically to Google. I myself may stay with my SF (Job is interesting and work environment is good. Pay sucks.), but am currently in the process of getting an offer from a major private aerospace firm and I may take it depending on how good it is.

SMART's not a bad deal most of the time, but it's definitely better if your commitment is only a few years.

LOL. This is hilarious.

2012_cohort wrote:You don't have to spend 10 years

Trust me, anyone who spends 10 years working in a STEM field for the DoD doesn't have any marketable skills by the time they get out. They've spent 10 years doing CBTs and cheating on certification exams. You can get a STEM degree, a clearance, and a couple of years experience anywhere. If you think working for the DoD is going to springboard your career into unimaginable success, you're dreaming.

2012_cohort wrote:At least one famously math/CS-heavy DoD agency is internally notorious for hemorrhaging talent specifically to Google.

Who? Seriously, WHO? Are you talking about DARPA? AFRL? The DoD employs 742,000 civilians. DARPA is 240 employees. AFRL is about 3000 civilians. There are some cool places to work in the DoD, it's just that they're a tiny percentage of the overall organization. If you think having "DoD" on your resume is synonymous with "DARPA" you're deluding yourself.

All of the resume nonsense is really a moot point anyway, because any potential employer worth a damn (in CS anyway) is going to have several proficiency exams lined up for you before you even get a f2f interview. My experience in the DoD absolutely did NOT prepare me for this, and if I had not spent countless hours working on my own projects, I seriously doubt I would have been able to get a good job afterward. It's not an exaggeration to say that I learned more in the first 2 weeks at a private sector job than I learned in Phase 2 of the SMART program.

2012_cohort wrote:I myself may stay with my SF (Job is interesting and work environment is good. Pay sucks.), but am currently in the process of getting an offer from a major private aerospace firm and I may take it depending on how good it is.

This is the typical exit strategy, and usually works out for most people. I know several people who have gone this route and I don't know anyone who has regretted it.

2012_cohort wrote:SMART's not a bad deal most of the time, but it's definitely better if your commitment is only a few years.

That's really a case by case thing. I don't necessarily think that the SMART program is a bad deal in terms of the benefits of the program. It's just that the DoD is not what they make themselves out to be. Personally, I was pretty depressed when I learned what it's really like. Put it this way - I'm never surprised when I get a new notification (every few months) that my PII has been part of another data breech. I've seen the people who are supposed to be defending our information.

by **guest** » Sat Jan 09, 2016 10:56 pm

2012_cohort wrote:
guest wrote:As a fellow computer scientist I should add that most interesting CS research is done in industry these days.
The government no longer runs the Appollos or the Manhattans these days. Sad, but true. Unless you are willing to spend the rest of your life in government, I strongly encourage fellow CS majors to build up their resumes and take industry jobs/internships to maintain marketability. I wonder if the likes of Google or Nvidia has ever hired anyone who has spent 10+ years working for the government...
You don't have to spend the 10 years. A STEM degree, a clearance, and a couple years experience in DoD can look very good on a resume. It's often way ahead of Generic Grad Student #29435 with no employment experience. At least one famously math/CS-heavy DoD agency is internally notorious for hemorrhaging talent specifically to Google. I myself may stay with my SF (Job is interesting and work environment is good. Pay sucks.), but am currently in the process of getting an offer from a major private aerospace firm and I may take it depending on how good it is.

SMART's not a bad deal most of the time, but it's definitely better if your commitment is only a few years.

That's awesome, I'm glad to hear there are parts of the DoD which are competitive with industry. Being a huge organization there will be parts of the DoD which offer great research opertunity and careers. The decision to stay or leave should be made on a case by case basis. Unfortunately there are departments within DoD labs which do nothing but waste money on projects to justify their own existence and funnel much of it to contractors.

by **2012_cohort** » Sat Jan 09, 2016 6:29 pm

guest wrote:As a fellow computer scientist I should add that most interesting CS research is done in industry these days.
The government no longer runs the Appollos or the Manhattans these days. Sad, but true. Unless you are willing to spend the rest of your life in government, I strongly encourage fellow CS majors to build up their resumes and take industry jobs/internships to maintain marketability. I wonder if the likes of Google or Nvidia has ever hired anyone who has spent 10+ years working for the government...

You don't have to spend the 10 years. A STEM degree, a clearance, and a couple years experience in DoD can look very good on a resume. It's often way ahead of Generic Grad Student #29435 with no employment experience. At least one famously math/CS-heavy DoD agency is internally notorious for hemorrhaging talent specifically to Google. I myself may stay with my SF (Job is interesting and work environment is good. Pay sucks.), but am currently in the process of getting an offer from a major private aerospace firm and I may take it depending on how good it is.

SMART's not a bad deal most of the time, but it's definitely better if your commitment is only a few years.

by **Guest** » Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:36 pm

Little strange that the OP comes in here, sings the DoD's praises and then disappears. His post reads like the self-reviews you write for your evaluations in the Air Force. "In Charge of $5m/year". That's great, but I'm much more interested in what you did with the money (probably not much) than how much money you got.

by **guest** » Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:59 am

As a fellow computer scientist I should add that most interesting CS research is done in industry these days.
The government no longer runs the Appollos or the Manhattans these days. Sad, but true. Unless you are willing to spend the rest of your life in government, I strongly encourage fellow CS majors to build up their resumes and take industry jobs/internships to maintain marketability. I wonder if the likes of Google or Nvidia has ever hired anyone who has spent 10+ years working for the government...

by **Guest** » Mon Jan 04, 2016 9:04 pm

All of this sounds great except when compared to private sector jobs. You never said what field you're in, but I can tell you that- as a computer scientist- when I left the DoD, I immediately doubled my income, and I'm on track to triple it before long. All you have to do is look at the pay schedules to know that 97k is at or near the top pay for a lot of fields. What locality are you in? Are you GS? Where do you work? I know a lot of people here don't say where they work because they're making negative comments about their workplace, but I would think you would be eager to share your SF, especially since it could help out so many other SMARTs that are looking for a good facility (which are exceedingly rare).

This has come up a few times on this forum, and I think it's important to stress that it is NOT that easy to transfer, and if you do, you're likely to end up someplace just as bad if not worse than where you were before.

What's worse than the pay is the work environment. I've worked everywhere from world-class engineering firms all the way down to McDonald's, and I can tell you that the treatment I received at McDonald's was far better than the treatment I got at the DoD. If your story's true, congratulations. But the fact is that your experience is in the extreme minority. I'm glad things worked out for you, and I sincerely hope that others have a similar experience.

by **Guest** » Sat Jan 02, 2016 1:47 pm

105 days left in my Phase 2...and if you asked me 2.5 years ago what I had planned for April 2016, I would have said without any uncertainty that I would be leaving the DoD and going to academia.

But, I don't plan on leaving my agency. I make $97K/year. I lead a research team in charge of about $5M/year I get to choose people for them to hire for my team. I've been given a civilian achievement award, participated in 2 years of leadership development, and been invited to participate in a 6 month developmental assignment in DC.

I'm not saying any of this to brag. I just want to make it known that, even though the SMART Scholarship program is horrendously managed and has horrible terms and conditions, especially for research degrees, the DoD itself actually offers some pretty awesome opportunities. If you are stuck in an agency that you don't like, do a little research and find another one and transfer.

The Unofficial SMART Scholarship Forum

Home Stretch

Post a reply

Expand view Topic review: Home Stretch

Re: Home Stretch

Re: Home Stretch

Re: Home Stretch

Re: Home Stretch

Re: Home Stretch

Re: Home Stretch

Re: Home Stretch

Re: Home Stretch

Re: Home Stretch

Re: Home Stretch

Home Stretch