The Unofficial SMART Scholarship Forum

by **LetsGetOuttaHere** » Sun Mar 30, 2014 8:27 am

recipient99 wrote: They have been changing the agreement every year. According to the emails they have been sending out, all cohorts are obligated to abide by the changes. I have no idea how it could possibly be legal to force someone to follow changes to a contract after he signs it. Regardless of whether it is legal or not, this gives you an idea of how the SMART Program treats the recipients.

I have the original service commitment I signed in 2008, and it says the following.

"4.6. Participant agrees that if he/she fails to fulfill the post-graduation service commitment, Participant will be indebted to the U.S. Treasury and promptly reimbursement the U.S. Government for any and all funds expended on behalf of Participant. Participant will receive a reduction in the amount owed commensurate with the time Participant satisfactorily served in the post-graduation commitment; "

That last sentence seems clear to me. The amount I owe the Treasury would be prorated. Also, I think it allows me to ignore the yearly changes in the agreement because it says this:

"7.1. This Service Agreement contains the entire agreement regarding the Participant’s involvement in the Program. Statements, promises, inducements, or documents that are not included in this Service Agreement shall not be valid or binding. "

So it looks like at least the 2008 cohort should be able to get out early if they're willing to pay back the prorated amount. This is not feasible for me, unfortunately. If anyone can figure out how I can get out of this $&!#-hole six months early let me know. All the SMART propaganda claiming that we would be working on "cutting edge" technology and research was a complete lie in my case. I can feel my career rotting away every time I sit down at my cube.

by **GuestDoneSmart** » Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:25 pm

Honestly though, how were you planning to pay for school outside of this scholarship program? For me, it was this or tens of thousands of dollars in student loans, plus a full-time job on top of full-time education. Now, I've gotten lucky because my SF seems to have their stuff together and really care about the SMART scholars (one of them made the front page of the SF's website for an article about the program), but even if I had gotten a bad SF I still go back and forth on whether or not I would've accepted the scholarship. Two years of school paid for, plus a salary, plus a guarantee of a job straight out of school (regardless of quality) is worth far more than two measly years of my life doing a job I don't enjoy. If I hate the job, I know that at the end of my commitment I'm free. If I like it, I have a job. I really don't see a true loss there, beyond some inconvenience.

The salary + a job after school should really not be a deciding factor. You have to consider your work experience at the SF and how it will relate to the job you want outside of the SF, after your commitment. If you're wanting to do R&D (as the SMART scholarship so willingly advertised), and you end up spending your working days on DAU, reading the entire internet, and filling out acquisition paperwork (in other words, nothing technical at all), then you aren't doing any favors for yourself. In addition to a lack of real-world work experience, all of those technical skills that you learned in school are becoming rustier each day you're at your SF not using them. Most companies doing R&D WILL require you to have a technical interview with members of their department to be sure that you are technically competent. I'm not saying it's impossible to leave your SF and go into a private sector R&D organization for a company - it is. But rest assured, it is a lot harder than just filling out a few resumes online. Trust me.

Crossing my fingers that I can skip it then. That sounds pretty terrible. The 2.5 week mandatory base orientation was pretty bad, especially after having 22 weeks of working at the base under my belt. 90% of the stuff only applied to safety regs in repair bays, that had absolutely nothing to do with any job in any building even somewhat near the one I work in.

Yup, that's the government for you -- and that wont be the last experience like that! Be prepared, you're about to see how Uncle Sam spends your tax money, and the waste is completely unimaginable.

by **upsetSMART** » Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:26 pm

Guest_Oct2013 wrote:
upsetSMART wrote:
I guess I lucked out on DAU. Our office compiled an answer book that we passed around and used to cheat.
The higher-level DAU courses are taken in a classroom with instructors monitoring the tests, so it will probably be a little harder to cheat during those. These in-classroom DAU courses are a significant time sink. One of them I took was two weeks (10 full business days) away from my regular job.

I hope that you can get out of these, but this wasn't an option at my SF. I tried.

I'm just trying to give fair warning to anyone who is considering signing up with SMART. I have a PhD in engineering, and some of the (many, many hours) of required DAU involved doing algebra exercises. I'm not exaggerating.

Crossing my fingers that I can skip it then. That sounds pretty terrible. The 2.5 week mandatory base orientation was pretty bad, especially after having 22 weeks of working at the base under my belt. 90% of the stuff only applied to safety regs in repair bays, that had absolutely nothing to do with any job in any building even somewhat near the one I work in.

by **Guest_Oct2013** » Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:13 am

upsetSMART wrote:
I guess I lucked out on DAU. Our office compiled an answer book that we passed around and used to cheat.

The higher-level DAU courses are taken in a classroom with instructors monitoring the tests, so it will probably be a little harder to cheat during those. These in-classroom DAU courses are a significant time sink. One of them I took was two weeks (10 full business days) away from my regular job.

I hope that you can get out of these, but this wasn't an option at my SF. I tried.

I'm just trying to give fair warning to anyone who is considering signing up with SMART. I have a PhD in engineering, and some of the (many, many hours) of required DAU involved doing algebra exercises. I'm not exaggerating.

by **Guest** » Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:56 pm

As a graduate student in the sciences, you take a research assistantship or a teaching assistantship. If the school you apply to doesn't offer you one, you go to a school that DOES offer you one. There's no difference between the top 20 schools, so you just find one that's looking for research.

Undergraduate, there's a LOT more financial help you can take that doesn't mess with your life's plans. But if you don't qualify, you don't need to go into 10s of thousands of dollars of debt + a full-time job. Many students can get through debt-free if they're willing to sacrifice things like a new car, senior trip with their friends, summer vacations, etc. You need to open your eyes if you think college requires going into debt. A part-time job + severe budgeting can get you through most state schools without any debt at all.

by **RF_EE** » Sun Nov 24, 2013 3:26 pm

Guest_Oct2013 wrote:
Can anyone give me a straight yes or no with an explanation as to why I should apply or not?
No. See my previous posts (and posts of many others on this forum) for the reasons.

I started my new job outside the DoD after Phase II about three weeks ago. It is indescribably better than the work at my SF. The pay is much higher, too.

I'll definitely be applying and keeping my ears open about it.
Best of luck with the application. If you end up accepting, I hope that the work is a great match for you.

If you can, find out if you will have to do DAU (or DAWIA) training. If so, I would turn down the scholarship based on that alone. It is a complete waste of (hours upon hours of) time.

In case it isn't clear from my previous posts: I wouldn't wish my work experience at my SF on my worst enemy.

Honestly though, how were you planning to pay for school outside of this scholarship program? For me, it was this or tens of thousands of dollars in student loans, plus a full-time job on top of full-time education. Now, I've gotten lucky because my SF seems to have their stuff together and really care about the SMART scholars (one of them made the front page of the SF's website for an article about the program), but even if I had gotten a bad SF I still go back and forth on whether or not I would've accepted the scholarship. Two years of school paid for, plus a salary, plus a guarantee of a job straight out of school (regardless of quality) is worth far more than two measly years of my life doing a job I don't enjoy. If I hate the job, I know that at the end of my commitment I'm free. If I like it, I have a job. I really don't see a true loss there, beyond some inconvenience.

by **upsetSMART** » Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:38 pm

upsetSMART wrote:
Guest_Oct2013 wrote:
Can anyone give me a straight yes or no with an explanation as to why I should apply or not?
No. See my previous posts (and posts of many others on this forum) for the reasons.

I started my new job outside the DoD after Phase II about three weeks ago. It is indescribably better than the work at my SF. The pay is much higher, too.

I'll definitely be applying and keeping my ears open about it.
Best of luck with the application. If you end up accepting, I hope that the work is a great match for you.

If you can, find out if you will have to do DAU (or DAWIA) training. If so, I would turn down the scholarship based on that alone. It is a complete waste of (hours upon hours of) time.

In case it isn't clear from my previous posts: I wouldn't wish my work experience at my SF on my worst enemy.
I guess I lucked out on DAU. Our office compiled an answer book that we passed around and used to cheat. I knocked out DAU level 1 training in like a week, and spent most of my time web browsing. Even cheating DAU was a pain. Then when I was done, I resumed my normal routine of mostly web browsing all day. Fun times.

Looks like I can't edit my post to add this. It feels ironic to be someone who is so opposed to government waste, becoming a shining example of government waste. I wish I could quit, save the taxpayers money, and go do something interesting.

by **upsetSMART** » Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:30 pm

Guest_Oct2013 wrote:
Can anyone give me a straight yes or no with an explanation as to why I should apply or not?
No. See my previous posts (and posts of many others on this forum) for the reasons.

I started my new job outside the DoD after Phase II about three weeks ago. It is indescribably better than the work at my SF. The pay is much higher, too.

I'll definitely be applying and keeping my ears open about it.
Best of luck with the application. If you end up accepting, I hope that the work is a great match for you.

If you can, find out if you will have to do DAU (or DAWIA) training. If so, I would turn down the scholarship based on that alone. It is a complete waste of (hours upon hours of) time.

In case it isn't clear from my previous posts: I wouldn't wish my work experience at my SF on my worst enemy.

I guess I lucked out on DAU. Our office compiled an answer book that we passed around and used to cheat. I knocked out DAU level 1 training in like a week, and spent most of my time web browsing. Even cheating DAU was a pain. Then when I was done, I resumed my normal routine of mostly web browsing all day. Fun times.

by **Guest_Oct2013** » Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:25 pm

Can anyone give me a straight yes or no with an explanation as to why I should apply or not?

No. See my previous posts (and posts of many others on this forum) for the reasons.

I started my new job outside the DoD after Phase II about three weeks ago. It is indescribably better than the work at my SF. The pay is much higher, too.

I'll definitely be applying and keeping my ears open about it.

Best of luck with the application. If you end up accepting, I hope that the work is a great match for you.

If you can, find out if you will have to do DAU (or DAWIA) training. If so, I would turn down the scholarship based on that alone. It is a complete waste of (hours upon hours of) time.

In case it isn't clear from my previous posts: I wouldn't wish my work experience at my SF on my worst enemy.

by **Guest** » Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:30 am

Sponsoring Facility

by **Guest_Help** » Fri Oct 25, 2013 12:14 am

Thank you all so much.
I do have one question, and I'm sure it will seem silly to you guys, what does SF stand for?
Other than that thank you for your help. I'll definitely be applying and keeping my ears open about it.

by **RF_EE** » Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:19 pm

smart_hopeful wrote:
Guest_Help wrote:So, I am looking into applying for this scholarship thing. From what I have read from this forum it sounds like a bad idea. Can anyone give me a straight yes or no with an explanation as to why I should apply or not?
Yes, you should apply. If you get the fellowship, if you like the offered agreement, and if a good SF with a good track record picks you (you can ask to speak with their SMART alums and get their emails for candid discussion), it's a great deal. If not, you can turn it down.

This. A thousand times this. I was pretty certain I wouldn't accept an offer. Then they made the offer and I got to speak with current and former SMART Scholars at my SF, and they reassured me candidly that the program's and SF's flaws are outweighed by what you get to do and you educational benefits.

by **smart_hopeful** » Wed Oct 23, 2013 5:09 pm

Guest_Help wrote:So, I am looking into applying for this scholarship thing. From what I have read from this forum it sounds like a bad idea. Can anyone give me a straight yes or no with an explanation as to why I should apply or not?

Yes, you should apply. If you get the fellowship, if you like the offered agreement, and if a good SF with a good track record picks you (you can ask to speak with their SMART alums and get their emails for candid discussion), it's a great deal. If not, you can turn it down.

by **upsetAnon** » Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:43 pm

Guest_Help wrote:So, I am looking into applying for this scholarship thing. From what I have read from this forum it sounds like a bad idea. Can anyone give me a straight yes or no with an explanation as to why I should apply or not?

Personally, I would apply and see what SF picks you. If it's at least in an area you would like to live, go for it. I was stuck in a small military town with nothing to do outside work and no social life. It was hell. If I were somewhere like Hill AFB though, outside a major city and with lots of outdoor recreation, I would happily work any job they gave me.

The financial aspect of it is great, but from what I hear, it's getting less great. I heard rumors that the latest contract does not prorate your payback, so you can't leave even a day early. I'v also heard they are trying to get rid of summer support payments, meaning some people may go into debt to do an internship depending on location. Previously, we were paid $1200 a week, which I admit was insanely awesome. I bought a 2 year old car with cash after just one internship by living in a ghetto apartment and eating ramen all summer.

The real problem is working a job for the feds in this political environment. Being furloughed by the sequester and then the shutdown has killed any sense or moral. Every young person worth their salt that I know is leaving for the private sector, and the older generation that is eligible for retirement is jumping ship. I predict that the military is going to horrible staffing issues soon, and I don't want to be around when the workload gets piled on those who are still around.

by **Guest_Help** » Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:00 pm

So, I am looking into applying for this scholarship thing. From what I have read from this forum it sounds like a bad idea. Can anyone give me a straight yes or no with an explanation as to why I should apply or not?

by **Guest_Help** » Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:00 pm

So, I am looking into applying for this scholarship thing. From what I have read from this forum it sounds like a bad idea. Can anyone give me a straight yes or no with an explanation as to why I should apply or not?

by **Guest_Oct2013** » Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:20 pm

An extremely interesting SF whose work makes good use of my degree.

The other three points don't matter much if one gets stuck in a job he hates for over three years that doesn't utilize his educational background. This was the case for me. The SF pitched the job to me as if I'd be working on cutting-edge development, so there was no feasible way I could've known how bad it would be until I got there.

The increase in graduate salary didn't end up mattering much, either, because the pay at the SF was awful. I barely stayed sane during phase 2, but I managed to finish it and I am starting a new job soon. The pay at the new job, which is around the median for someone with my educational background and experience for the location in which I'll be, is almost 40% higher.

Now 2-4 are heavily dependent on SF...

Certainly, there are people who have gotten good work that they enjoy at their SF. For me personally looking back, if I had known that there was greater than a 5% chance of ending up in the nightmare that my SF turned out to be, I would've never accepted it. That the work was, for the most part, irrelevant to my educational background was not the worst part. Some of the people with whom I was stuck working - including the people above me - were unbelievably unprofessional. I am not exaggerating when I say that when I worked at McDonald's in high school, the employees there were in some ways more professional than the engineers with whom I worked in the government.

I sincerely hope that everyone else has a better experience at his SF than I've had. Let this be a warning, though, that there is the realistic chance that it will be a nightmare.

by **smart_hopeful** » Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:26 pm

fish_ wrote:@recipient99

you would have to take a poll to really know if that is the spirit of the SMART program participants.

I don't think I'll really be able to assess whether or not SMART was the right choice until I get hired by my SF full time (knock on wood), but so far I have to say I'm pretty pleased with the program. There's been glitches, delays, and the usual bureaucratic hiccups, but those are mostly just inconveniences. On the plus side, SMART has given me:

1. A substantial grad school salary increase.
2. An extremely interesting SF whose work makes good use of my degree.
3. A security clearance and work experience for the resume, if I decide I want to move on post-commitment.
4. A (sort-of) promise of a stable job in a terrible economy. (Again, knock on wood.)

Now 2-4 are heavily dependent on SF, I'm sure. But I have to say, so far I'd say it's been a very positive experience.

by **Guest_Aug2013** » Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:10 pm

recipient99 wrote:
CMMMM wrote:I'm with you, but I'm not optimistic that the program is that reasonable. ... the DoD pays everyone to show up and surf the internets. Depressing, really...Accepting the SMART scholarship was mos def the worst move of my career.

Guest wrote:SMART couldn't give two craps about what you do.

guest4 wrote:I would love to get released. Anyone else with me?
I agree. These posts are gems that really encompass well the spirit of the SMART Program.

It saddens me to look over at the "General Questions and the Application" forum and see all the young talent getting enthusiastic about jumping on board.

I would like to add words of encouragement to all the yound talent by providing my personal experience as I am encouraging my son who accepted SMART scholarship. I am an immigrant and have good 25 years+ DoD electronics engineer career. I spoke very little English when I jointed DoD civilian workforce, but I was very good with numbers. In my early years, I did not have good jobs nor bosses, but many mature co-worker helped to understand that I can make thing better. I also had job that not required more than couple hours of work. I learned to speak up in non-complaining manner and took initiative to find work or propose value added work or move on. I worked as hardware designer, software developer, researcher, database modeling, technical contracting officer, system engineer, program manager, Information assurance architect, etc. I also realized that it was not about instant job satisfaction when work provided some small or large contribution to protect our soldier in harm way and keep our nation safe, and it is very good reason for me to go to work everyday. I was hope to retire as GS-13, and I am a GS-15 engineer.
Do what best for you, but please don't let one or two lousy jobs discourage you. You can take it as an opportunity to learn and improve system, process, project or organization or learn transferable skills such as communication, program planning, etc. DoD (government) needs smart people to acquire the needed state of the art capabilities to protect the nation and transfer them into commercial usage. It is fun to develop and test a particular technology, but it also fun to learn about many technologies, researches and concepts then to mature and apply them to create a full system or capability. With DoD funding, industry capability and academic knowledge, smart people like you can do so much for the nation safety, economy and health.

by **empty** » Sun Mar 17, 2013 4:33 pm

2012_UMD wrote:As a recent recipient, I was half expecting an email this week detailing the changes to the award due to sequestration, or at least a, "Your March payment has been indefinitely delayed." Luckily, nothing. If we get the April payment on time and in full, I think those of us still in Phase I will be in the clear.

I agree. I've been thinking, if the the program receives a 13% cut (which is across all departments in DoD), it should be able to finish off those "graduating" from phase 1 and, as long as no new SMART participants are entered into the program, maintain those already in phase 1.

I understand that a 13% cut to each department does not mean that our program itself will only be cut by 13%. I agree, if I get the first (April) ISP, I expect that our program will be alright for those continuing in phase 1.

by **2012_UMD** » Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:53 am

As a recent recipient, I was half expecting an email this week detailing the changes to the award due to sequestration, or at least a, "Your March payment has been indefinitely delayed." Luckily, nothing. If we get the April payment on time and in full, I think those of us still in Phase I will be in the clear.

by **Phase II** » Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:02 pm

I came on board to my SF recently for phase II. Sequestration will take place next month, resulting in ~80% of originalpay. If your agency is having a hiring freeze, I would suggest you apply for jobs in industry. If the SF comes back within two years after you graduate, oh well, you will have to quit your industry job and accept the job offer or pay back the money. In terms of not getting furloughed for being a SMART scholar, I am not a lawyer, but very much doubt that anyone can get out of this unless they are emergency personnel or in a combat zone. To be honest though, the DoD is being as fair as they can be by furloughing everyone. Would you really want to be the new guy who gets full pay while the veterans get a20% cut? This would bread animosity towards you. My two cents...

by **concerned_SMART** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:31 am

nettns wrote:So I've been trying to obtain a copy of my SF's MOU (the one that we have on site expired 2010) or some other document that outlines what that SF's responsible are to participants. I know what my responsibilities because I have my service agreement on hand.

What I'm trying to establish is: Does the SF agree with SMART to provide us with full-time employment? Would furlough put us below OPM's "full-time" status? Its described as 2080 paid hours per year. And ultimately, what would that mean for the service contract? Would SF be out of compliance with an agreement that they had signed?

It feels like I'm basically being brushed off by the new cohort admins.

It's a very good question. Anytime I have spoken with a CA about it, they say that I need to work it out with my SF. When I ask my SF about it, they tell me that it shouldn't be that big of a deal that I might be furloughed for 8 weeks out of my 1 year commitment.

It's incredibly frustrating to not be able to receive a sound answer from anyone about anything.

by **recipient99** » Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:44 pm

I know what my responsibilities because I have my service agreement on hand.

They have been changing the agreement every year. According to the emails they have been sending out, all cohorts are obligated to abide by the changes. I have no idea how it could possibly be legal to force someone to follow changes to a contract after he signs it. Regardless of whether it is legal or not, this gives you an idea of how the SMART Program treats the recipients.

Does the SF agree with SMART to provide us with full-time employment?

Judging by their past treatment of me, if there is any possible way to read the contract (even if this way is unfair to the participant) that allows them to say that they aren't required to provide full-time employment, then they will interpret it that way.

As "Guest" in a previous post in this thread put it:

So you're currently in Phase II? And you're worried about what SMART will think if you get furloughed or otherwise re-assigned?

I doubt they will care much unless you lose your job. ...

Once you're in the DoD, SMART couldn't give two craps about what you do, so long as you stay there until the completion of Phase 2. ... They don't really care if you get furloughed, so long as you continue working.

This pretty much expresses how I predict the SMART Program will respond to any questions regarding the participants' requirements during the furlough.

by **nettns** » Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:16 pm

So I've been trying to obtain a copy of my SF's MOU (the one that we have on site expired 2010) or some other document that outlines what that SF's responsible are to participants. I know what my responsibilities because I have my service agreement on hand.

What I'm trying to establish is: Does the SF agree with SMART to provide us with full-time employment? Would furlough put us below OPM's "full-time" status? Its described as 2080 paid hours per year. And ultimately, what would that mean for the service contract? Would SF be out of compliance with an agreement that they had signed?

It feels like I'm basically being brushed off by the new cohort admins.

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