The Unofficial SMART Scholarship Forum

I guess there might be some small lab out there with government workers not contractors doing research, but I have not seen one.

Posters in the thread linked below have suggested they are doing research at large government organizations:

http://thesmartforum.org/viewtopic.php? ... 46e7#p4411

Of course, I don't know how common it is that SMART recipients end up in such a position in which they find themselves doing good engineering work. From the complaints on this forum and the sentiments expressed in your message, I am under the impression that the complaints are frequent enough that it should make SMART applicants at least a little uneasy. If I'd known before I'd accepted that even only 1 out of every 100 applicants end up in my position, I would've turned it down.

I find it ironic that engineers or scientist do not know that government does contract out a lot of research. Have you ever been to a job fair at school? It is Defense Companies that do the research. The government job is to oversee the research. If you want to do research then the govt is not for you, but they will pay for your degree so you can decide if it is worth it. I guess there might be some small lab out there with government workers not contractors doing research, but I have not seen one.

Also, I'm assuming by "at the lab you are assigned" you mean to say the site in general, not a specific research group?

No, I mean there is interesting work being done on the resources located in the rooms in which I am physically present every day, but all of this relevant work is contracted out to a place in another part of the country. I wouldn't have known this from what my mentor told me prior to my arrival. Even if he had told me, it wouldn't have mattered: I would've used reasoning similar to what you did above - i.e. "surely there'd be some way I could get in on the interesting work." And there may very well be such a way. But when I've tried to follow such a path, it has been a political nightmare. I've found that it's just not worth it trying to jump through all the hoops and deal with all the misleading information and shiftiness. The time spent on all that could be used to complete significant work toward a publication in another area.

Now, I suspect that someone who is good with politics could get what he wanted in a much quicker fashion than I can. However, I am happy to say that I didn't complete all those years of academic work to learn how to slime my way through DoD politics.

I'll try to respond to the other questions later.

recipient99 wrote:
Consider that I know for a fact that there is work going on in the lab to which I'm assigned that is directly related to my research, but I can't work on it for political reasons. .

That sucks. I'm still curious to know what kind of pitch they gave you. Was this research going on at your lab part of the selling points discussed by whoever you talked to at the SF before you accepted, or did you find out about the research after the fact? Were you more engaged in area appropriate research during your summer internships only to find as a full time employee you were moved to another area that had an empty desk? I guess to put it bluntly, could you see this coming in hindsight?

Also, I'm assuming by "at the lab you are assigned" you mean to say the site in general, not a specific research group? I have a friend who works for one of the DoD SF's (not as a SMART scholar) and from their experience I definitely believe you that there is not a whole lot of flexibility to work outside of your directorate, but it seems there is a little bit of flexibility to collaborate between groups within a directorate, even if just for temporary stints on big projects.

What has your experience been in this area?

I have chosen my two SFs ... but I also believe that just because that choice is made doesn't automatically mean I will be working on what I want to do.

Exactly. It isn't as easy as just saying that, "Something is going on somewhere in the DoD that is related to my research, so surely they will let me work on it!" That thinking is too logical for the DoD. In some ways I am still accepting, after 3 years, the astounding absurdity that most of what goes on with the DoD has a large component of complete irrationality to it.

Consider that I know for a fact that there is work going on in the lab to which I'm assigned that is directly related to my research, but I can't work on it for political reasons. There are projects in my building that are directly related to my research, but for reasons unknown to me, every request I've made to work on them has been denied.

I second the warning from Nunya about DAWIA. In my first two years at my SF, I spent I think about 10% of my time on DAU training alone. Most of it is a complete waste of time - which is infuriating for someone who just completed 10 years of school to get specialized degrees in engineering, only to be put through hours of worthless training.

I really hope that this doesn't happen to anyone else. But if it does, don't say you weren't warned.

I've posted something similar before, but make sure to ask your SF if you'll have to be DAWIA certified. A constant thread among the disgruntled is the lack of real work, and an abundance of paper pushing. This because of DAWIA. Basically, thanks to Al Gore, congress passed a bunch of laws requiring significant oversight of EVERY DoD program. This doesn't sound too bad on the surface, but when you scratch the surface, you see a never-ending onslaught of meetings, papers, reports, and evaluations. To accomplish these mandated tasks the DoD had to hire an enormous amount of personnel to handle the additional workload. The rub is that the laws also require the people doing the paperwork to have degrees in the sciences. So the disparity comes from the experiences of to entirely separate positions, the researcher/developer, and the DAWIA bitch required processing a program "legally.” Even in positions that do both, the DAWIA part makes up 80%-90% of your task load.

SmartHopeful_1 wrote:Hey recipient99 and 007 -

Sorry to break in on your dialogue but I couldn't resist..

No worries! Yes, I have gathered the view that a little bit more research into the facility may save some from monotonous doom. I have chosen my two SFs with the choice of the third being any lab and I think the "any lab" part now makes me cautious. My top two choices are, of course, doing R&D in my prospective fields of interest. I definitely agree that making a proper choice is in order but I also believe that just because that choice is made doesn't automatically mean I will be working on what I want to do. I hear some people are in acquisitions, grant writing, etc. at their chosen SFs. A previous poster mentioned that a fellow intern was told by his supervisor "I don't have time to tell you what to do," or something along those lines while his supervisor had oodles of work for him (which he was happy about). I'm keeping my fingers crossed that I am even considered for the opportunity. Then I'll weigh the pros and cons when I get to that point.

Cheers!

Hey recipient99 and 007 -

Sorry to break in on your dialogue but I couldn't resist. I am a PhD student, passed quals and currently still in the running for this years SMART fellowship. A lot of the time I have lurked the forum I think that SF complaints stem from a bad match between a student who wanted to do research and a site that really doesn't, and that tailoring my application to a specific research only site would save me from the issues with under-utilization and monotony.

In my application I narrowed my site choices down to specific branches within directorates within labs for all three of my top choices because I knew (through publications) of individual researchers working on what I am working on for my PhD thesis. Recipient99 - did you end up at a site that you originally thought would be a good match for your PhD thesis? I saw in a previous thread that you did an engineering field - I'd be surprised that NOBODY in the DoD was doing something close to whatever you worked on. When your SF offered you a spot did they imply that they were doing work relevant to your PhD?

If I don't get an offer from one of the labs that I know is doing working closely related to my own (at least in my specialization), I plan to walk away.

Thoughts?

Also, apologies to smart_hopeful for totally stealing your username.

007,

I appreciate your advice in the link.

You're welcome. I should say a couple of things about the idea of planning to just go to your SF and do research on your own that hasn't been assigned to you - "going rogue," so to speak.

Although this is a possibility, there are many problems with such a plan. I'll point out two big problems with this of which I am aware.

First, your SF will probably assign you something to do. Even if that is just some boring paperwork or some menial, mindless task that takes only 25% of your time, they will probably give you something to do. This will inevitably get in the way of the side tasks that you are doing. I would guess that it is more difficult than you might think to stealthily work on a difficult problem of your own around your assigned tasks.

The second problem is that meaningful research can be really difficult to do in isolation. That is, there is a reason why the best research comes out of universities and labs that have groups of really bright people. Good research isn't just a matter of sitting in one's cube all by yourself all day and grinding out a research paper (this is part of good research, but this isn't all of it). Good research involves collaboration with people who care about working on difficult problems. My experience has been that the general attitude is that people here really just don't care that there are better ways of going about solving the problems on which they are working. Working in an environment with this general attitude makes it extremely difficult - if not impossible - to get the support from management and co-workers required to do meaningful research.

Of course, this problem is more significant if you are doing advanced research. As I understand it, you are working on a Bachelor's, so this may not be as significant for you. I have a PhD, so being in a place for 3 years with such an environment could be a long-term (if not perpetual) setback to my career.

I wanted to revisit something I'd said earlier:

By the way, I realize that not every SMART recipient has had a negative experience.

To be fair, it very well may be the case that most SMART recipients are having positive experiences - or this may not be the case, I have no idea. But it is true that, based on the posts I've read on this forum, there is a non-negligible number of recipients who have been very displeased. This is something that every applicant should take into account during the application process.

If you do end up accepting, I really do hope that it works out well for you, as it has for some people. But, again, I'll reiterate my opinion that the SMART Program is really suited for students who either:

1) Do not have any other option to pay for school, or
2) Expect to be desperate to find a job after they finish school.

Guest_1 wrote:I am thankful. Even if I DID just play on the internet. Hell, wouldn't waste my time like that anyway... do your own research. Get published. Learn something. If they are paying you to sit there DO SOMETHING. Its giving us job experience, looks impressive, and having the security clearance goes a long way. I had a full free ride, no-stings attached all the way through. I had to give it all up. Even with all this jacking around, I would STILL do it. So, your making less money for a while. A bird in the hand is worth more than one in the tree.

Please be aware that some of us work in organizations that cannot buy anything legally but office supplies. Literally. And contrary to the SMART scholarship goal of hiring engineers and scientists for research jobs, many of us are employed in organizations that conduct no research, no technical design work, no technical analysis, etc. There is nothing more in the world that I would like than a job where I can actually apply my degree that I worked hard for. I doubt you can write a journal or conference paper utilizing Microsoft Excel and purchasing forms.

As someone stated on this forum before, if you are going to a sustainment center, don't count on doing anything remotely close to R&D.

Guest_1 wrote:BUT the whole thing is a crap shoot. Just make your own experience.
I am thankful. Even if I DID just play on the internet. Hell, wouldn't waste my time like that anyway... do your own research. Get published. Learn something. If they are paying you to sit there DO SOMETHING. Its giving us job experience, looks impressive, and having the security clearance goes a long way.

Thanks Guest_1. I like the make-it-happen attitude and determination. If I am awarded the opportunity and I end up like the other intern you mentioned, I'll have to go to my boss' boss and request to do something. I can't imagine them paying a full ride for interns only to have them not do anything but clerical work. Then, by the time phase two comes around, all they have experience in is clerical work so that's what they do. I don't buy that. I have to do something related, even if it's acquisitions, at least I'm still in the "field" so to speak. In either case, get the money and make it hap'n cap'n.


Recipient99,

I appreciate your advice in the link. I do need the money because I'm studying for a second bachelor's degree (first degree unrelated) and money is hard to find for a non-traditional student who has already obtained a BA/BS. I'm going to just have to voice my opinion of the matter if applicable to do some kind of related work. Maybe I'll get lucky or maybe I won't. Either way, I don't know if I could pass up the opp if I get the award. I'll take it and have to figure things out later. There are some who would think life is smooth sailing in a cubicle, but neither you nor I want that type of free ride. I want to be a researcher so give me some research to do! LOL.

Thanks to you both for your input!! I'll be more concerned with the matter when the awards go out in ... April I guess? Until then ... fingers crossed that I would be considered for the opportunity.

007,

In a previous thread to another applicant in a similar position, I offered the following advice:

I am a recipient who is currently in post-graduation employment who has had a very negative experience. Based on my experience and those of others I've read on this forum, I have come to the conclusion that the SMART Program is really suited for students who either:

1) Do not have any other option to pay for school, or
2) Expect to be desperate to find a job after they finish school.

You can view the whole thread here: http://thesmartforum.org/viewtopic.php? ... 9de2b4a564

By the way, I realize that not every SMART recipient has had a negative experience. However, given the non-negligible number of people on this forum who have expressed discontent, applicants should take into account that there is a realistic possibility that they will be seriously disappointed.

I think it does depend on where you are, even within the SF. They worked my ass off. They gave me real work, challenging, and pushed me hard. Had to do briefings and presentations. Reported once a week to my supervisor, everyday with my mentor. I could hear another SMART student ask what he could do, and HIS supervisor said he didn't have time to deal with him. He sat in a cubicle on the internet. I know for me, they pushed me harder then anyone else (we have 8 interns). But, they needed someone badly in my position and couldn't afford to have me hang around. Trial by fire. Jump in and swim or leave. They gave me all the support I needed, all were friendly and helpful, and didn't laugh as I was stumbling around... okay, they did, but it was all in good spirits. I consider many friends now. BUT the whole thing is a crap shoot. Just make your own experience.
I am thankful. Even if I DID just play on the internet. Hell, wouldn't waste my time like that anyway... do your own research. Get published. Learn something. If they are paying you to sit there DO SOMETHING. Its giving us job experience, looks impressive, and having the security clearance goes a long way. I had a full free ride, no-stings attached all the way through. I had to give it all up. Even with all this jacking around, I would STILL do it. So, your making less money for a while. A bird in the hand is worth more than one in the tree.

responder wrote:To the original poster,

My experience thus far has been generally positive. It has honestly been a huge blessing to me, even though my graduate work would have been paid through my university. My advisor loves that he doesn't have to pay me. My SF is wonderful, the people are great, Im having a boat load of fun in the lab and my mentor is a wonderful guy. I am thoroughly excited to start working for them once I finish my degree. The only concerns have been the budget scares really, so nothing has actually impacted me yet.

But I have always wanted to work for DoD, and I didn't want to have to live through contractor-dom to get to government. This way I get to work on some useful stuff, directly related to my grad school research, on the base I wanted to work on because it's where I plan to move back to after school, and I get to have a government position right after graduation.

However, based on what I see around here, this is not always the case. I just happen to have a wonderful SF, and mentor. Perhaps I am lucky but don't assume it's all paper pushing and useless monotony until you are released. I actually plan to work with my SF as long as they will let me, this scholarship was just the way to get me in the door.

Thanks so much Responder. I know that this opportunity would be a major blessing. I'm going to see if I'm selected before I start having unnecessary concerns. I was just accepted for the NREIP at a facility I'm excited about so I'm going to see how the research goes there. Unfortunately I found out about this SF after I applied to SMART and I included it on my NREIP essay. I hope that if I am awarded the scholarship, I can choose this SF for SMART if they choose me.

On another note, as I said in a previous post, I want to believe the best about SMART and I don't want to sound ungrateful for the possibility of the opportunity. It's just that I want to work for govt as well (although I would consider a govt contractor), and I know this would get me and keep me in the door!! I just want to be sure that I can grow in my intellectual and research capacity and I don't want to have my growth stifled due to whatever reason.

I'm glad that this program has worked out well for you so far and I hope that if I receive the scholarship, my story will be similar. Hopefully the budget cuts will not drastically affect the program.

To the original poster,

My experience thus far has been generally positive. It has honestly been a huge blessing to me, even though my graduate work would have been paid through my university. My advisor loves that he doesn't have to pay me. My SF is wonderful, the people are great, Im having a boat load of fun in the lab and my mentor is a wonderful guy. I am thoroughly excited to start working for them once I finish my degree. The only concerns have been the budget scares really, so nothing has actually impacted me yet.

But I have always wanted to work for DoD, and I didn't want to have to live through contractor-dom to get to government. This way I get to work on some useful stuff, directly related to my grad school research, on the base I wanted to work on because it's where I plan to move back to after school, and I get to have a government position right after graduation.

However, based on what I see around here, this is not always the case. I just happen to have a wonderful SF, and mentor. Perhaps I am lucky but don't assume it's all paper pushing and useless monotony until you are released. I actually plan to work with my SF as long as they will let me, this scholarship was just the way to get me in the door.

@AnEngineer-
It is unconventional but I'm going to wait until the awards are made before I give serious consideration to my choice.

@Guest-
That sounds like a good plan for now. We'll see what the survey says come April.

I just finished browsing some of the posts in the May/June graduation thread started today and I'm not too thrilled about what I see. Here's to the waiting game *raises glass*.

Guest007 wrote:@AnEngineer -
See, that is what I was afraid of. I am fortunate to have a full academic scholarship but I've had to take out loans for R&B. SMART makes sense in that it will provide a free ride so to speak but I'm not trying to rack up useless experience (if it can even be called experience) no matter the price paid because when I look for a "real" job, my resume may not read well. Furthermore, even if I am able to talk with my SF's, even the engineers, I'm afraid what happened to you will be a common thread. Their opinions will be biased and they'll make it sound all roses when it's not.

Guest -
I feel your plight. The same goes for me. I am fortunate to have an academic scholarship but I still have to take out loans for R&B. SMART looks great on the site but idk, I think I may have to pass if I receive the award. As you said, too many strings attached.

Thanks to you both for your insight.

Keep your full ride, get loans for R&B. I took SMART and in the end, I was given a salary offer so low that I could have taken a private job and paid back SMART and still come out ahead from a money perspective.

007,

This is likely unconventional, but you may want to try to schedule a visit with your SF, especially if it's not too far away. They of course can't take you into any "secure" areas, but if you can sit down and talk with people and see at least some of their equipment if they give you a tour (if any exists), you might be able to get some idea yourself. Get an idea what you're looking for. For example, if you're touring a depot, they may show you a lot of tooling they use to work on vehicles, ships, or airplanes, but know full well that you are not going to be turning any wrenches there. It may be impressive to see and may have been a neat design problem at one time, but chances are, you wont be working with any of that stuff at all. Depending on your major, you'd want to look for facilities to conduct your prospective area of research - wind tunnels, water basins, spectrum analyzers, function generators, various material characterization machines, etc etc etc. Places with these facilities or utilizing this equipment carry the most promise (note however many facilities employ contractors to run these things, so it certainly may not seal the deal) .

This is of course an extra cost to you (SMART will not pay for this) and the SF may not even agree to it. But, after talking with them on the phone, if you're not completely comfortable with the award, you may want to consider it. A few hundred dollars for a plane ticket is a lot better than the debt you will rack up from terminating a SMART commitment early. If nothing else, at least you would learn something.

Also, ask about the pay scale. This has been discussed somewhat in previous threads here I think, but in addition to trying to ascertain what a starting salary may be, etc, ask if the employees are GS or some other pay scale like DR. I think (I certainly cant speak from any experience here) if you're going to have any luck at all with the scholarship in an R&D perspective, a DR or ND (I believe these are the two - someone correct me if Im wrong) are the scales you are looking for -- these carry the most promise for being employed in some sort of research capacity. Like I said though, I don't know anyone on these scales - but they are advertised as such. If you are going to be paid under GS, like the majority of everyone is, I'd be very skeptical again that you would get to sink your teeth into anything. If this is the case, make sure you ask lots of questions.

@AnEngineer -
See, that is what I was afraid of. I am fortunate to have a full academic scholarship but I've had to take out loans for R&B. SMART makes sense in that it will provide a free ride so to speak but I'm not trying to rack up useless experience (if it can even be called experience) no matter the price paid because when I look for a "real" job, my resume may not read well. Furthermore, even if I am able to talk with my SF's, even the engineers, I'm afraid what happened to you will be a common thread. Their opinions will be biased and they'll make it sound all roses when it's not.

Guest -
I feel your plight. The same goes for me. I am fortunate to have an academic scholarship but I still have to take out loans for R&B. SMART looks great on the site but idk, I think I may have to pass if I receive the award. As you said, too many strings attached.

Thanks to you both for your insight.

I think it all comes down to money. If you can afford to finance your education or you have a waiting list of scholarships that will pay your way with no strings attached, it would be in your best interest skip SMART. It is always better to be the one making decisions about your future instead of letting someone else make them for you. Anyone who qualifies for the SMART scholarship can probably write their ticket anywhere...once they get out of school that is.

The flip side is, if you can't afford school, and SMART is offering to pay your way...well, it's definitely worth it. Put up with a couple years of sub-prime work to walk away with zero college debt, and a shiny new degree.

I really had no financial alternatives and that made SMART a godsend for me.

007,

To answer your question, I would not do it again. I am literally a paper-pusher. This was true of my internship experience and even more true for my current employment. By in large, the level of work I do can easily be accomplished by someone who knows how to read a mechanical drawing (a few HS or community college classes). There is some project management at my facility, but certainly nothing that requires a BS or MS aerospace / mechanical engineering degree.

If I could do the application process over again, I'd push really hard to talk to multiple actual engineers at your facility, preferably where you are going to be placed. I asked my facility POCs multiple times about the kind of work and what my job details would be. They painted a very rosy picture that sounded awesome, and to be honest, is quite far from the truth. For example, a facility may say they did something very high profile (ie diagnose a structural failure or perhaps a system failure like the F-22 oxygen problems, etc) and how they utilized their engineering talent to do this. The truth of the matter is when the SF says "we" they most likely mean a defense contractor - and they just managed the contract and maybe managed the efforts to put boots on the ground to fix the problem. I'd ask an actual engineer (multiple preferred) that works there - SMART student or not (a SMART student would certainly be a good base point) about their job.

Ask about the tools they have available. Ie, what kind of engineering software do they have? CFD? FEA? Some kind of SPICE? Do they have any simulation or computational packages? Most places in the government likely only have a word processor and spreadsheet programs installed. If they say they do have these things, ask if they're in a lab you'll have access to / if you'll have direct access to them on your computer / as a percentage of your job responsibilities, how often you will be using them. I was told we had a few engineering tools I asked about - turns out we only have not even a handful of licenses (1 or 2 for everyone), basically only to view contractor files (if we use them at all). Ask also about engineering hardware. Will you have access to development boards, oscilloscopes, function generators, DAQs, transducers, etc? Will your day-to-day job responsibilities involve you utilizing them? Finally, ask about how how hard it is to buy these things and buy hardware for projects. Many government "engineering" organizations are not permitted to buy anything except day-to-day office supplies (this is true way before the sequester or any of this stuff started to happen). If your office is set up to buy office supplies and contract out engineering services to contractors, you will not be happy if you're looking for R&D. I thought I did my due-diligence asking my SF numerous questions - however, I never had the opportunity to ask actual engineers, working currently in an engineering capacity. They also did not know my specific job description at the time. Looking back, this was my worst mistake.

If your facility cannot answer these questions, cannot put you in touch with any actual engineers, or heck, doesn't know the exact organization that you will be working for, I would be VERY inclined to reject the offer. When you're a student in school, the stipend and tuition benefits are great. Do not be persuaded by them. Get the questions that are most relevant to your career answered first. If you do not get the warm and fuzzy and / or have questions unanswered due to the facility being unsure, don't do it. Find another source of funding. If you accept SMART and walk in the first day of your internship and / or commitment and are disappointed, it is already too late - the amount of money that the government paid to you likely makes it prohibitive to quit. Take it from someone else who wanted to do R&D - it is NOT worth the misery.

smart_hopeful wrote:
Now you do say you want to be an R&D scientist. If you mean in academia, SMART is probably not the way to go. You need to be doing a postdoc after graduation to even have a chance at that lottery. If you mean in industry, SMART and the subsequent "real world" experience with DoD could well be positives to put on a resume.

Thanks for your advice. I guess there are probably as many satisfied SMART recipients as those who are dissatisfied. I'll try to contact my SF preferences.

As far as R&D - no not in academia at all but in defense. It would be great to work at the Naval RL or in the R&D department for a defense contractor (I'd prefer the latter). I'll keep my hopes up that I will receive an award and keep my fingers crossed that the phases all go well if I do. Let's hope there is continued funding for SMART!!

Guest007 wrote:I want to believe that this program is a wonderful opportunity without the gray area so I want to ask, if you had it to do over again, would you? Why or why not? Thanks!!

I'm currently in the program, graduating at the end of this year. My experience so far is limited, but based on what I know I would do it again in a heartbeat.

It looks to me like a person's success with the program depends greatly on the sponsoring facility. Some are great, some are bad. The way to find out is to have the SF put you in contact with their current employees who are SMART alumni. My SF did this, and to a person (and there were about a half-dozen of them) they all had very positive experiences with their current job. Several of them are there well past their required commitment, and have stayed just because it's an interesting and rewarding job.

If your SF is badly organized and doesn't have SMART alums you can talk with honestly, tread cautiously. This goes double if SMART is paying for many years - if you're only committed to DoD for one year and the job turns bad, that's not nearly so career-interrupting as if you're committed for five years.

Now you do say you want to be an R&D scientist. If you mean in academia, SMART is probably not the way to go. You need to be doing a postdoc after graduation to even have a chance at that lottery. If you mean in industry, SMART and the subsequent "real world" experience with DoD could well be positives to put on a resume.

So as you can see I am not a recipient but my question is for recipients who have experience with the SMART process.

I have applied for SMART and I have made it through round two I believe (to my understanding, there were no notifications sent for round 1). Needless to say, I am excited but my news is bittersweet b/c I've been reading posts from the 2012 Applicant threads and now this news about sequestration. I know the scholarship is definitely lucrative but now I'm wary. It would be great to work for the DoD but I hear phase two participants are paper pushers instead of effective scientists/engineers and by the time they are finished with their commitment, a number of them leave the DoD. And now, this news about pay cuts, reduction in internship support - I wonder if SMART is worth it. I know its not the org's fault but I want to be a R&D scientist and not a gopher in an SF for my commitment term. As they say, more money more problems.

I want to believe that this program is a wonderful opportunity without the gray area so I want to ask, if you had it to do over again, would you? Why or why not? Thanks!!