The Unofficial SMART Scholarship Forum

fish_ wrote:@Kaelinth
She is going to Naval Surface Warfare Center, Dahlgren (Virginia). Of the Navy bases in my area, Dahlgren has the best recruiting process and people.

Thank you so much! Hopefully my HR person can figure out why they're not affected and I might be.

@Kaelinth
She is going to Naval Surface Warfare Center, Dahlgren (Virginia). Of the Navy bases in my area, Dahlgren has the best recruiting process and people.

Chris Moulder wrote:My salary was written in package that I received at orientation. Without the LA County COLA adjustment it would have been a fair amount below industry, but with it, it was higher than industry. The area I lived in was actually really cheap to be in too.

...I guess things change over the years

Over the years, yes. Sequestration is happening. People are trying their best to look after their own... I think I was at the same orientation as you (2009 summer?) and my SF was completely unprepared for what they were trying to do. I only wish I could have gotten the salary in a packet at orientation. My mentor had no idea how to bring me on board so I didn't see any materials like that.

In the end, it all comes down to the HR dept at your facility. If your HR dept wants you, they'll bring you on board. If your HR dept is more concerned with avoiding a RIF, you'll see red tape after red tape, excuses, etc. SMART will try their best, but they cannot force HR to hire you. You have signed a commitment to SMART. The SF has NOT signed anything with the SMART Program. That may be changing as later cohorts come on board, but my SF stonewalled the snot out of SMART. It was frustrating watching them play chicken with each other while I had to wait for someone to flinch so I could know if I was getting a job with the DoD or not...

My salary was written in package that I received at orientation. Without the LA County COLA adjustment it would have been a fair amount below industry, but with it, it was higher than industry. The area I lived in was actually really cheap to be in too.

...I guess things change over the years

fish_ wrote:i have two kids graduationg in May, one in the SMART program and one did NREIP. The NREIP student accepted a job offer, but missed the hiring freeze cut-off by four days, and so he is affected. The SMART student worked at the SF last summer, and has been told by her SF that she is not frozen (at least as of last weekend).

Which service is your SMART kid?

Guest wrote:Note that my HR rep made sure to let me know I would also be excepted service, and would be so for 2 years when I would be non-competitively transitioned to career/career-conditional.

She also then went on to explain that my GS13 promise was illegal, and OPM requires all GS13 positions to be competitively advertised.

Good luck hopeful.

Hmm. Well, I appreciate your letting me know. I'd rather go into it with my eyes open. That said, I'm still pretty sure I'm going to come out ahead. They've only got me for a year and a half if they want to pull something sketchy, and there's (apparently happy) SMART people at this SF now who're there well past their contractual commitment.

My experience with salary has been similar to that described by guestivusMaximus and CMMMM. Prior to my signing, the SMART Program Admins referred nebulously to the idea of salary negotations with the SF upon Phase I completion. When it came time for the SF to hire me, they gave me a salary number and said, "Sorry, that is the best we can do." I spoke with the SMART admins about it. They were no help. There were no negotiations to be had.

While working on my PhD, I spent some time working as an intern at a DoE lab with only an MS. As an employee in the SMART Program with a PhD, for much of the time I've been working at my SF, my pay has been less than it was as an intern at the DoE lab.

smart_hopeful wrote:Here's what they told me by email, fwiw. I've redacted a couple things, and also note that DIA is part of the so-called excepted service and not subject to the same set of restrictions as the competitive service.

Note that my HR rep made sure to let me know I would also be excepted service, and would be so for 2 years when I would be non-competitively transitioned to career/career-conditional.

She also then went on to explain that my GS13 promise was illegal, and OPM requires all GS13 positions to be competitively advertised.

Good luck hopeful.

guestivusMaximus wrote:Most everyone I have talked to has been treated the same way concerning pay. "You're a SMART student and you have to take what we offer" is the standard retort to anything you say in contract "negotiations". Whatever your civilian counterparts are making take $20k off of that figure and come to terms with the amount. Take an additional $10k off before you look at your offer, this will help prepare you for the slap in the face you are about to receive. GS, DB, Lab Demo, whatever pay scale, whatever your level of education, whatever school you went to, it doesn't matter. Your pay will be equivalent to the pay of other incoming interns.

I am unfortunately one who has been treated this way, as well. For me, I was optimistic after being given salary figures my last summer at the SF, but they wouldn't put anything in writing until the actual hiring process started the next Spring. When that time came, my salary was an insult, and yes, (imho, at least) it comes down to the fact that you have little leverage in salary negotiations. So with a PhD from a top 10 engineering school, working in the DC metro area, I make less than $80k/yr. The masters level contractors (working while in PhD program) make within $2k of me. My advice to students that ask me about the program is to carefully consider if they want to get shafted salary-wise in exchange for a virtually guaranteed job after graduation. (The fact that your resume will likely suffer by working at most SFs is another discussion.)

Here's what they told me by email, fwiw. I've redacted a couple things, and also note that DIA is part of the so-called excepted service and not subject to the same set of restrictions as the competitive service.

Generally, DIA follows the government's Office of Personnel Management (OPM) guidelines on starting salaries for all personnel. Currently those guidelines result in offers of GG-11 positions to job candidates with a PhD and no additional substantive qualifying experience (at the GG-11/1 level). [...] The OPM pay scale (found at http://www.opm.gov) may change on January 1 of each year. As a comparison, initial offers to candidates with only a B.S. degree and no additional substantive qualifying experience is a GG-07.

The full performance level for [my offered job] is a GG-13. Entering at the GG-11 level, you would be considered for noncompetitive advancement annually until you reach the GG-13 level.

smart_hopeful wrote: Assuming my SF is honest about the salary I start at next year (GS 11), I'll be making more than almost all postdocs in my field of physics. From there I'll advance 1 grade per year for the next two years until I hit the standard salary level for my position (GS 13), at which point I'll be making assistant professor money.

I'd get that in writing... I was told the same thing (in writing) by my mentor when I started. When it came time to be hired, I was rebuked by an HR bureaucrat who said that it is illegal to give GS13 to anyone without it being a competitive promotion. She claimed they have to create a GS13 position and you have to apply to it and be interviewed along with anyone else who applies to it on USAjobs.gov. You cannot be "non-competitively" appointed to anything beyond a GS-12.

Kaelinth wrote:Also, pay level affects different fields differently. The GS I was given last year as what to expect is well above what I would be earning as a post-doc. Anyone in the field of biology accepts that the pay will suck horribly for awhile after you finish your degree. So when I saw what they were offering (at least as I was previously informed), it was actually quite a pleasant surprise. Granted, post-docs in my field make less that what I'm getting for my current stipend, if that gives you any idea. I know in more engineering based fields, this is not the case.

Assuming my SF is honest about the salary I start at next year (GS 11), I'll be making more than almost all postdocs in my field of physics. From there I'll advance 1 grade per year for the next two years until I hit the standard salary level for my position (GS 13), at which point I'll be making assistant professor money. There's the added bonus of the fact that the academic job market is a barren and desolate moonscape, and the probability of actually finding a tenure track job is slim at best.

I don't think my SF will try to con me. I'm only tied to them for 1.5 years, and I believe they want to keep me and my cohort permanently. But I at least have the darkly amusing consolation that just about any way they might try to steamroll me into a bad deal would end with me making more than I would have in the academic world.

Gee, it'd be nice if they gave us more of an idea of what exactly we were supposed to be doing in order to get hired. The handbook says very little to nothing other than get hired. So, I'll just try my best to stay on top of it. I've already submitted my CV and transcripts, which is all that has been requested by HR. I know my official transcript isn't done yet, but at least they have something so they can hopefully start the process, so long as they get over their hiring freeze issues.

Also, pay level affects different fields differently. The GS I was given last year as what to expect is well above what I would be earning as a post-doc. Anyone in the field of biology accepts that the pay will suck horribly for awhile after you finish your degree. So when I saw what they were offering (at least as I was previously informed), it was actually quite a pleasant surprise. Granted, post-docs in my field make less that what I'm getting for my current stipend, if that gives you any idea. I know in more engineering based fields, this is not the case.

GuestTk wrote:Shouldn't there be a time to specifically define out the "prompt repayment" clause? I really want to take it to a lawyer and ask what that means...

It means: they got you to sign it without asking for a definition, so you are at the mercy of their definition

It also means: they have no clue what they mean by prompt repayment, they just hope you never have to get to that point (that you transition to phase 3 without issue).

Shouldn't there be a time to specifically define out the "prompt repayment" clause? I really want to take it to a lawyer and ask what that means...

Last year it took four months to get officially hired by my SF. Some SMART students started before their official hire and were told they would get reimbursed for their time. They didn't. The payback time or Phase II does not officially start until your SF-50 is finalized. Start days only occur at the beginning of pay periods, which creates about a three to five week gap until you receive your first pay check. The process is further complicated as you will be dealing with three to four individuals to process your hire; SMART SPO, virtual HR, your branch ADMIN, and your Branch Manager. I had to send three official transcripts to the SPO, virtual HR, and branch ADMIN. Even though you know SMART has certain paperwork, I can guarantee that your facility does not have it nor have access to it. You will need to submit an updated resume or CV, course and degree summaries, transcripts, and anything you can think of to justify your entry level pay, before hire. Most everyone I have talked to has been treated the same way concerning pay. "You're a SMART student and you have to take what we offer" is the standard retort to anything you say in contract "negotiations". Whatever your civilian counterparts are making take $20k off of that figure and come to terms with the amount. Take an additional $10k off before you look at your offer, this will help prepare you for the slap in the face you are about to receive. GS, DB, Lab Demo, whatever pay scale, whatever your level of education, whatever school you went to, it doesn't matter. Your pay will be equivalent to the pay of other incoming interns. Some program managers actually see SMART as the ultimate sign-on bonus and will offer you less than participants in other internship programs. Once you have your SF-50 you forward that to the SPO and they issue a Phase II letter that outlines your 'contract'. I will say this, at my facility SMART students have been fired and some have left early. I have yet to hear anyone mention that they received a notice for "prompt repayment". I have heard that it becomes a federal debt, similar to student loans, and will be written off to a typical student loan collection company (eg: 'Fedloan Servicing'). If that is the case, "prompt repayment" actually means "payment over time lumped together into your student loan debt". One thing all participants should realize is that as a new employee you will most likely be engaged in training or administrative functions. Many of the SMART student with Engineering degrees are having issues with professional development because they are not doing PE level duties. Most of the SMART participants that I have encountered have been fairly disappointed with their experience. There are exceptions, one guy I know absolutely loves it. But for participants with mid-level project management experience and most advanced degree holders it will be quite a shock. Most participants leverage the SMART experience to better opportunities, but getting to that point is often frustrating. Either way I wish incoming participants the best of luck.

OK, thanks. Sorry about your NREIP student. Hopefully my SF will figure out what's going on, because it sounds like right now, they are saying they can't do anything. And I am not the first SMART student brought in by my SF either.

i have two kids graduationg in May, one in the SMART program and one did NREIP. The NREIP student accepted a job offer, but missed the hiring freeze cut-off by four days, and so he is affected. The SMART student worked at the SF last summer, and has been told by her SF that she is not frozen (at least as of last weekend).

Has anyone heard anything else about hiring for the May graduates? My SF is in a different state from where I currently am, and with a spouse in tow, we're having to progress with the move and pursue job opportunities for them, and just hope that I get hired as well...

The political reality is that sequestration is not actually wanted by anybody in congress. Too much money is going to too many voters who're going to be upset about it. (Including us!) Somebody will cave. If sequestration happens, it won't last long.

I know this sounds like cold comfort to those of us who'll be affected if it does kick in for any amount of time, but the powers that be don't like it either and will work to find a way out of it.

SMART never promised full-time employment? Well I guess that is a loop hole to consider :)

There has to be some presidence if the furloughs do happen to talk to a lawyer and try and get out of the commitment. The handbook never mentions what would happen if furloughs did happen but if they were smart they would want people to leave because we are just draining their current cash flow. I really want to make a petition for the people that want to get out of the program and send it to the senate/house of reps or at least our own congressmen, because we are a waste of their investment and logically if we are going to leave the day after our commitment is over it is a terrible investment for the government, money that could be used elsewhere. I am not sure how to go about doing this but this seems like a good forum to start. I am also planning on talking to a lawyer about the furloughs and the contract in general, it seems that people who have left the program have not been billed...I am not sure how long it would take for them to get billed but the contract says prompt reimbursement...what does that mean? 1 month, 1 year, 10 years? How long can they hold the debt against us?

I have a great deal of concern about this topic as well. It is unfortunate for those that will be taking a 20% pay cut that have already gone through Phase 1. It is very troubling to me, since I am still in Phase 1 and graduating in May. I am worried that I will be forced to wait until I graduate to get any concrete answer about employment. If that is the case, then I will not be hired and I will have missed out on previous networking opportunities over the past year and a half. Basically, the candidates graduating in May will be left out to dry.

SPO always says the money has been preallocated yet has had money payment issues a few times. I'm not sure if they do or they don't. To answer your question, I know they will attempt to pay everyone their full length of college. If they stop, its because they have lost their job (which they would like to keep). As far as your breach of contract, if SMART stops paying it basically releases you from everything. You can't fight them to get anything more (like the rest of the money) but you don't have to work for your SF either. I am on the other end, facing a possible 20% pay cut if they start making us work 4 day weeks. The AF is looking to do that in early March if nothing happens before then. Its unfortunate because that isn't a breach of contract as SMART never promised full time employment or certain pay, just that we had to work for our SF for our whole payback period. So now instead of having student loans to pay, I may just have 20% less pay than the already lower pay of a gov't engineer.

Definitely understand that there's a lot of hurry-up-and-wait going on while congress acts on sequestration, but it has me worried about SMART being on the chopping block (not to mention the hiring freeze.) One of the many reasons I accepted SMART was because during the Q&A session at SMART's orientation I remember being told that budget cuts would only affect the number of future SMART scholars since ours had already been paid for. Does anyone else remember hearing this? My reason for asking is, even if there is a hiring freeze and SMART ends up releasing some of us when our SF won't hire, are they still going to fund us throughout the remainder of our award length (i.e. for future semesters, will SMART still be able to pay us and our tuitions?) Wouldn't that constitute a breach of contract if no? I've looked to the participant handbook for answers, but it has clearly been condensed, and some of the more detailed contingencies have been removed or made more vague. (I still have every intention of fulfilling my agreement with SMART, provided the opportunities are available, but I'm just wondering about what-ifs).