Decisions

General Discussion for SMART Scholarship Recipients
kbl2017
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Decisions

Post by kbl2017 »

So a while back there was a forum talking specifically about positions in acquisition and thats what most of these positions are. I learned from my trip that while yes the base that is going to sponsor me is specifically acquisition it is fairly easy to request to move around once you start working before your set time is up. You have to prove that the work benefits your sponsoring military branch. So if you're air force acquisition and a year in you connect with another base that has a research position perfect for your skills you can change.

I also had an interview for a position in a non-DoD branch and the deputy director of the division strongly urged me to take the scholarship offer even if it is not the perfect job. Once you are a civilian he said it is extremely easy to switch between government branches.

So anyone on the edge but looking for a career in civil service that's some knowledge that helped me decide this was the best opportunity for me.

guest254453

Re: Decisions

Post by guest254453 »

kbl2017, thanks for the post. I was one of those who was worried about this.

Guest

Re: Decisions

Post by Guest »

This is actually untrue. It is incredibly difficult to transfer SF during Phase I and Phase II.

kbl2017
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Joined: Mon May 15, 2017 10:48 pm
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Re: Decisions

Post by kbl2017 »

Guest wrote:This is actually untrue. It is incredibly difficult to transfer SF during Phase I and Phase II.
You can't transfer during phase 1. During phase two if your SF supports you it is not difficult. Your duty is to the sponsoring branch, not your specific facility. Besides which anyone who like I said in my initial post is looking for long term civil service, not at their SF it's extremely easy to apply and transfer after your time is up. I have now had this discussion with five people both within my SF and with other civil service branches.

LOL_DOD_quizzes

Re: Decisions

Post by LOL_DOD_quizzes »

Once you are a civilian he said it is extremely easy to switch between government branches.
This is partially true. It is much easier for a government employee to transition to another government employee position than for the government to hire a non-government employee. There are many jobs on USAJOBS (how you commonly apply for federal service positions) that you can only apply to if you are a current federal employee. If your goal is to be a federal employee SMART is an excellent way to get into the system. I would be hesitant to call any transition "extremely easy" as federal service is always a bureaucratic nightmare.

Many times the listing you see on USAJOBS are created for a specific person (often times within the same organization), but by federal law the job must be competed. So just because you see listings doesn't mean that it is actually open for competition. I have friends that have been "promised" positions at other organizations and have been waiting over 12 months for the position to come open for application.
During phase two if your SF supports you it is not difficult. Your duty is to the sponsoring branch, not your specific facility.
I know people that have successfully transitioned SF as well and they would not describe the process as "not difficult". What you don't understand is that many times your SF is using you to fill a billet that they can't fill otherwise. So when you all of a sudden request to transfer they can block it by citing you as a critical need. (I should note that if you are transitioning federal position after Phase II and it is a non-promotion transition then your supervisor can also block transitions. I have friends that can't leave their job unless they get a promotion because they are consider critical personnel.)

I would argue that to transition SFs once in phase II you need massive support from either the facility you are going to transfer to or support from you current SF. If you just apply for a position on USAJOBS then you most likely aren't going to be able transition while in phase II.

Remember you are going to be working for the federal government. The federal government is a massive bureaucracy and nothing is ever extremely easy. There is always a process and approval boards. Things take time and all the red tape has to be navigated.

kbl2017
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Re: Decisions

Post by kbl2017 »

LOL_DOD_quizzes wrote:
During phase two if your SF supports you it is not difficult. Your duty is to the sponsoring branch, not your specific facility.
I know people that have successfully transitioned SF as well and they would not describe the process as "not difficult". What you don't understand is that many times your SF is using you to fill a billet that they can't fill otherwise. So when you all of a sudden request to transfer they can block it by citing you as a critical need. (I should note that if you are transitioning federal position after Phase II and it is a non-promotion transition then your supervisor can also block transitions. I have friends that can't leave their job unless they get a promotion because they are consider critical personnel.)

I would argue that to transition SFs once in phase II you need massive support from either the facility you are going to transfer to or support from you current SF. If you just apply for a position on USAJOBS then you most likely aren't going to be able transition while in phase II.

Remember you are going to be working for the federal government. The federal government is a massive bureaucracy and nothing is ever extremely easy. There is always a process and approval boards. Things take time and all the red tape has to be navigated.

Exactly so on this point. My SF said if we could justify it to them then they'll be extremely supportive. It wouldn't be an apply on USAJobs kind of thing.
LOL_DOD_quizzes wrote:
Once you are a civilian he said it is extremely easy to switch between government branches.
This is partially true. It is much easier for a government employee to transition to another government employee position than for the government to hire a non-government employee. There are many jobs on USAJOBS (how you commonly apply for federal service positions) that you can only apply to if you are a current federal employee. If your goal is to be a federal employee SMART is an excellent way to get into the system. I would be hesitant to call any transition "extremely easy" as federal service is always a bureaucratic nightmare.

Many times the listing you see on USAJOBS are created for a specific person (often times within the same organization), but by federal law the job must be competed. So just because you see listings doesn't mean that it is actually open for competition. I have friends that have been "promised" positions at other organizations and have been waiting over 12 months for the position to come open for application.
I totally feel you there. I thankfully have networking connections in the other branches as I've worked for them before so that's probably why I see it as easier. Again as above, my SF is extremely supportive of us moving around and networking. They said their overall goal is to keep us in the airforce and to do so they're willing to help us switch facilities.

Guest

Re: Decisions

Post by Guest »

It is in fact not easy at all to work a transfer during Phase II, and I certainly wouldn't base acceptance of the scholarship on it.

If you search this forum, you will find horrific accounts of scholars who have found their appointments to be a bad fit and were unable to transfer.

LOL_DOD_Quizzes

Re: Decisions

Post by LOL_DOD_Quizzes »

kbl2017 wrote:
Exactly so on this point. My SF said if we could justify it to them then they'll be extremely supportive. It wouldn't be an apply on USAJobs kind of thing.

I totally feel you there. I thankfully have networking connections in the other branches as I've worked for them before so that's probably why I see it as easier. Again as above, my SF is extremely supportive of us moving around and networking. They said their overall goal is to keep us in the airforce and to do so they're willing to help us switch facilities.
If you are going to switch facilities it WILL BE a USAJOBS type thing unless you are moving to an organization that commonly works with yours and they are doing an internal hire. Your buddy over at DOD Research Lab XYZ can't say "I really like kbl2017! I'm going to hire him." That is against federal law. Any position must be competed. Usually the open billet is offered up throughout the organization and any similar organizations (for example a program office that commonly works with a research lab). All employees must receive a chance to "compete" for the position if there is a promotion. If it is lateral, but someone could be promoted into the position then it still must be competed. However, I believe that if you are in a temporary billet (non-permanent employee) position in your organization and a permanent billet opens up you can be moved without competition since it removes a temporary position from the organization.

I had previously mentioned that sometimes these job announcements are created for specific people and that is true. In that scenario you have been working with org XYZ (usually through some secondary job responsibilities) for some period of time basically already doing the job. They will then put out to position for competition written to match your current qualifications and experience. This is typically only done when someone moves from department to department within an organization.
It is in fact not easy at all to work a transfer during Phase II, and I certainly wouldn't base acceptance of the scholarship on it.

If you search this forum, you will find horrific accounts of scholars who have found their appointments to be a bad fit and were unable to transfer.
This poster is telling the truth. Transitions between organizations are typically very rare and do not expect help from SMART.

AGAIN you are working for one of the largest bureaucracies in the world that has to follow so much red tape it will make your eyes bleed. If you think the government can rapidly hire and move people you are sorely mistaken. Just go search this page for post about people who had to wait MONTHS after graduation to be hired to their SF!!! The organization knew they had to hire them for years under an existing hiring authority and they still took months! (I had to wait 3 months after graduation to be hired).

kbl2017
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Joined: Mon May 15, 2017 10:48 pm
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Re: Decisions

Post by kbl2017 »

LOL_DOD_Quizzes wrote:
kbl2017 wrote:
Exactly so on this point. My SF said if we could justify it to them then they'll be extremely supportive. It wouldn't be an apply on USAJobs kind of thing.

I totally feel you there. I thankfully have networking connections in the other branches as I've worked for them before so that's probably why I see it as easier. Again as above, my SF is extremely supportive of us moving around and networking. They said their overall goal is to keep us in the airforce and to do so they're willing to help us switch facilities.
If you are going to switch facilities it WILL BE a USAJOBS type thing unless you are moving to an organization that commonly works with yours and they are doing an internal hire. Your buddy over at DOD Research Lab XYZ can't say "I really like kbl2017! I'm going to hire him." That is against federal law. Any position must be competed. Usually the open billet is offered up throughout the organization and any similar organizations (for example a program office that commonly works with a research lab). All employees must receive a chance to "compete" for the position if there is a promotion. If it is lateral, but someone could be promoted into the position then it still must be competed. However, I believe that if you are in a temporary billet (non-permanent employee) position in your organization and a permanent billet opens up you can be moved without competition since it removes a temporary position from the organization.

I had previously mentioned that sometimes these job announcements are created for specific people and that is true. In that scenario you have been working with org XYZ (usually through some secondary job responsibilities) for some period of time basically already doing the job. They will then put out to position for competition written to match your current qualifications and experience. This is typically only done when someone moves from department to department within an organization.
It is in fact not easy at all to work a transfer during Phase II, and I certainly wouldn't base acceptance of the scholarship on it.

If you search this forum, you will find horrific accounts of scholars who have found their appointments to be a bad fit and were unable to transfer.
This poster is telling the truth. Transitions between organizations are typically very rare and do not expect help from SMART.

AGAIN you are working for one of the largest bureaucracies in the world that has to follow so much red tape it will make your eyes bleed. If you think the government can rapidly hire and move people you are sorely mistaken. Just go search this page for a post about people who had to wait MONTHS after graduation to be hired to their SF!!! The organization knew they had to hire them for years under an existing hiring authority and they still took months! (I had to wait 3 months after graduation to be hired).
I'm not saying that this would be specific to only during phase two. My point is to people looking to remain a civil servant for the long term post-SMART requirements. I am obviously lucky my SF specifically stated they would support us in moving to a different opening at another air force facility and help us through the process during phase 2 and I really have no idea what process he was discussing other than they would be related facilities to our own. I didn't pay much attention because I don't plan to switch during the two years of phase 2 - I imagine it would have to be an extremely solid connection and relation looking to fill a very specific position. But it is not impossible. Maybe your school works with an AFRL or something like that.

In the long term though I assume not a single person on this forum will stay in the exact same job they were hired into, thus applying on USA jobs is always going to be something we have to do or what's the point? I also never said anything about speed etc, because it's government I've worked in it for a year now and I know it is slow. However, the specific branch I am looking to work at 4 years from now will not hire you unless you are already a civil servant through pathways or some other method or have 8+ years of experience. So for someone like me this is one of a very few ways to be "easily" transferred there.

I know you are a previous scholarship recipient, and I know you have personal experience that was not this and so have other people. I, however, have spoken with multiple people DoD, my SF and other civilian workforces and am not making it up. I'm also not incorporating anyone from SMART into decisions relating to moving around during phase 2. The man who interviewed us and ran our site visit explained that we are only SMART/ASEE employees until we sign our contracts for full-time jobs at the start of phase 2. So other than fulfilling our two years and filling out surveys through phase three they can't stop our SF from saying yes I want to move her/him elsewhere during phase 2. Again, I don't think it happens often, but my SF was very clear that it could happen.

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