The Unofficial SMART Scholarship Forum

[quote="Retirement"] After 5 years of work you are entitled to a retirement pension equal to 5% of the average of your 3 highest salaries. If your highest salaries were averaged around $75,000, at 5% you would get $3750 a year, inflation-indexed, until you die. [/quote]

Almost, a recent bill just passed (not sure if signed into law yet) has changed this for all new hires after 31 Dec 12 and all feds with less than 5 years job experience. The new provisions for our retirement is a high-5 calculation and we will be paying 3.2%, as opposed to the current .8%, to our pensions every pay day. Still its not a bad retirement plan, thats subject to change at [i]almost[/i] any time.

As a sidenote, the salary might be lower in the beginning when compared to private workers but make sure to look into the benefits category. After 5 years of work you are entitled to a retirement pension equal to 5% of the average of your 3 highest salaries. If your highest salaries were averaged around $75,000, at 5% you would get $3750 a year, inflation-indexed, until you die.

This percentage keeps on getting larger and larger the longer you work. It looks like if you were to work for the government for 40 years, (from ages 22 to 62), you could have a retirement pension of 44% of your highest 3 year average of salaries. If highest salary was $100,000 (for round numbers) your pension would be $44,000 a year, inflation-indexed.

This is a tremendous amount of cash when you consider this along with social security and the TSP (government 401k equivalent). As long as the system holds up for the U.S. Government these benefits can potentially dwarf the private industry for occupations held constant.

Just something to think about when joining the Federal Government...

For those Interested, here is the grade and step I start at when I start working in mid-Summer for CERDEC at the Aberdeen Proving Grounds in Maryland.

School: Georgia Institute of Technology
Degree/Major: M.S. Mechanical Engineering
GPA: 3.8/4.00 (at time of salary being offered)
Work Experience: 11 months of engineering internships (3 internships during undergrad, 1 internship for Sponsoring Facility)

Based on Special Rate Tables for engineers, (they use this for engineers instead of standard GS Scales)

http://apps.opm.gov/SpecialRates/2012/Table041401012012.aspx

I will start at a GS-9, Step 4, or $58,183. HR Stated that they do look at your GPA and your work experience to determine which step you start at. For a Masters you start at a Grade 9, Step 1 and adjust from there. Apparently I would have started at GS-9 Step 6 if I had 12 months of work experience but this does me little help now (and they stated they can not give you Step 5 instead for being just short of 12 months).

For those with internships still to go it might be worthwhile to manage the number of weeks/months you work if you are nearing a point such as 12 months of work experience. I do not know what qualifications specifically brought me from Step 1 to Step 4 but they state GPA and work experience. I also do not know what points they look at for work experience (i.e. potentially they offer a step increase if you have at least 6 months of experience, etc.)

It doesn't look like research and publications really factor in to your salary.

There is very little room for negotiation. For my division, they have strict standards as to what pay level you start at based on some sort of chart that they have.

Hope this helps others for those interested in the program and for those choosing the lengths of their internships to hit round work-experience length numbers.

@recipient21: i agree that "OPM does not allow the HR person to substitute education for "time in grade"", that requirement, if allowed, will be spelled out in the job announcement.

this particular job announceent covers a range of occupations and the pay scale for each based on experience
[url]http://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/300954800[/url]
if you look at the OPM requierments for any of these jobs, the lowest grade will be for someone with education only, no experience

[quote="fish_"]@recipient21: you have to look at the each announcement. some are for entry level, meaning that education is substitued for experience. most are for promotions from one level to another, with the requirement to have one year experience at the previous level.[/quote]

I think you might be mistaken. A lot of mentors or other base personnel might say that education substitutes for experience, but if you get into an HR specialist's office, you're going to be told a different story. OPM does not allow the HR person to substitute education for "time in grade" (the one year you're talking about), which is the ultimate requirement for progression in the GS system. Just because it says "entry level" does not mean you can skip a grade.

If you were looking at a pay banding scale, that's a different animal and I haven't researched that one as much as I have the GS system.

@recipient21: you have to look at the each announcement. some are for entry level, meaning that education is substitued for experience. most are for promotions from one level to another, with the requirement to have one year experience at the previous level.

[quote="fish_"]using usajobs, i saw that the sf was hiring entry-level compsci and math BS grads at $60k/year. since the jobs were "open" for only a week, it appeared that they were hiring from within, hopefully bringing their interns into permanent positions.[/quote]

You're probably right in your assumption.

But even if you were to throw your hat in the ring on the posting, if the posting was for a GS-12/13 and you were fresh out of school with a PhD, or the posting was for a GS-9 and you were fresh out of school with a BS, the facility's HR dept would disqualify you because you didn't have "time in grade". The HR specialists within DoD seem to be literally unable to give you a higher grade than what OPM says they can give you. Makes you wonder why we're even paying them to do that kind of stuff if it can simply be written as a logical if-then-else statement where your credentials are tested against the OPM standards...

Thanks a lot for the info, this pretty much confirmed my suspicions , it is kind of disappointing considering I have an internship this summer with a private company that pays relatively the same as this. It's tough to decide it only seems like a pay cut to me. I am a finalist waiting notification on whether I won or not. I've been fighting with whether It is a good idea or not. Also it worries me because there are a lot of negative stories about experiences in the smart program , I hardly found anyone content with their situation so job satisfaction unfortunately seems to be an issue as well.

using usajobs, i saw that the sf was hiring entry-level compsci and math BS grads at $60k/year. since the jobs were "open" for only a week, it appeared that they were hiring from within, hopefully bringing their interns into permanent positions.

and if you are offered some of those perks, [b][u][size=200]GET IT IN WRITING[/size][/u][/b] from your SF Human Resources specialist (NOT your mentor) [b][u][size=200]BEFORE[/size][/u][/b] you sign the SMART agreement

And for other potential recipients, you should be aware OPMs website details much about things like relocation and signing bonus.

If you are a potential awardee (have been offered the SMART contract, but not yet signed it) it would behoove you to read over the OPM guidelines and know EXACTLY what your SF Human Resources rep is allowed to offer you by way of relocation and signing bonus. They're actually pretty hefty sums, and if you wait until after you sign the SMART agreement, you can kiss ANY chance of obtaining those sign-on bonuses goodbye.

More info: [url]http://www.opm.gov/3Rs/[/url]

Guest, it will depend a LITTLE on your SF. Some of the research labs use pay banding systems, and OPM allows them to pay a little more than various "other" facilities such as proving grounds, bases, etc.

The MAJORITY of facilities, however, use the GS pay schedule and salaries are determined by OPM (The Office of Personnel Management) guidelines. See [url]http://www.opm.gov/qualifications/standards/group-stds/gs-prof.asp[/url].

A BS engineer would start at a GS-5 in most cases. However, a GS-7 is possible as long as the applicant has something on his/her resume proving "superior academic achievement". Sufficient proof is something like a GPA >3.5 (not hard for most SMART recipients) or membership in an honor society such as Phi Kappa Phi, Tau Beta Pi, Eta Kappa Nu, etc. From what I can tell, those honor societies require a superior GPA anyway so you usually would just show your transcript and you'd get the GS-7.

And yes, the New York area would be paying around $43,738 annually (see [url]http://www.opm.gov/oca/12tables/html/ny.asp[/url]). If that rubs you the wrong way (I know it rubbed me the wrong way when I found out) then you might want to start crunching numbers about how much you'd make outside of the DoD and how much you'd have to pay back if you cut and ran now. Be sure to take into account that employees at your facility likely get a yearly or semiannual bonus (but private companies give these often, anyway, so you may not care). The bonuses I believe are usually on the order of a thousand or two. Those will probably be leaned out though as DoD deals with budget crunching. Also, you will be paid overtime if needed while working for the government, which is something most private white collar workers do not get.

If you haven't yet signed the contract, then your options are still pretty wide open. Good luck making the decision.

does anyone actually have a number for starting salary for someone with a BS in electrical engineering. I can't seem to find any information, and what little I've been able to find suggest that starting would be at the GS-7 step 1 in the NYC area, thats only $43000 !! Can anyone confirm this even if its not in the the NY area thats fine does anyone have any info on this matter. I read through this thread and noticed a lot of speculation on what the pay actually is. Someone said a person with a BS in engineering would roughly be making 56k I would love to know how you arrived at that figure. Everything I find is significantly lower than that..

Also, if you have made agreements regarding anything (salary or otherwise) prior to signing, and you are counting on them holding their end of the agreement, I would strongly suggest that you [u]get it in writing[/u]. Expect them to throw curveballs.

Joe Mama:

Based on my experience, those numbers are much higher than what I would expect for an M.S. But, it is always possible that you are getting a much better deal.

[quote="recipient99"]I am a recipient in post-graduation employment with a Ph.D. Maybe others have had different experiences, but based on my experience, it would be completely unrealisitic for someone with an M.S. degree to expect to make anywhere near $89k with the DoD in the first two years - at least based on my experience at the location to which I've been assigned. Unless they give 50% raises after the first two years, which I highly doubt, I would suspect that it is highly unrealistic to expect anything in that ballpark soon after the first two years. Again, this is based on my experience. Maybe or other recipients at other locations have had different experiences.[/quote]

I was informed that with a Masters, you start out as a GS-09-8##. Then after one year, you are automatically bumped up to GS-11-8## and then to GS-12-8## after the second year. Apparently the GS-09-8## and GS-11-8## are something like engineer in training levels and the "promotions" are automatic. If I was blatantly lied to, someone please let me know.

I am a recipient in post-graduation employment with a Ph.D. Maybe others have had different experiences, but based on my experience, it would be completely unrealisitic for someone with an M.S. degree to expect to make anywhere near $89k with the DoD in the first two years - at least based on my experience at the location to which I've been assigned. Unless they give 50% raises after the first two years, which I highly doubt, I would suspect that it is highly unrealistic to expect anything in that ballpark soon after the first two years. Again, this is based on my experience. Maybe other recipients at other locations have had different experiences.

[quote="DJ Dynasty Handbag"]What kind of salaries were some of you expecting to be able to make after graduation if you had not gotten the SMART Scholarship? I think making ~$106,000/year only 2 years after graduating with a Masters is pretty darn good.[/quote]

By my calculations, with a Masters after 2 years, assuming your designation is Rest of US, you would be making ~$89,000, not $106, 000. That being said, that is still very good and I would also like to know what other people assume they can get outside of SMART. Starting pay may not be as high but look just a couple of years down the road and I think it is a lot more competitive.

Where did you get the $106,000 number? At least on the ND pay scale, you'd have to be an ND-05, or really high on the ND-04 band to break 6 figures, depending on the locality index. I though master's degree students came in at an ND-03 level, or low on the ND-04 band.

What kind of salaries were some of you expecting to be able to make after graduation if you had not gotten the SMART Scholarship? I think making ~$106,000/year only 2 years after graduating with a Masters is pretty darn good.

I am a recipient who is in post-graduation employment right now. Based on my experience and those of others I've read on this forum, it is indeed possible that you will receive a low salary offer for post-graduation employment. Before joining the SMART Program, I was working for a DOE lab as an intern with a M.S. degree, and took a pay cut after receiving my Ph.D. and beginning work with the DoD for post-graduation employment as part of the SMART Program commitment.

Although the SMART Program during the application process stated that there would be the opportunity for salary negotiation, it was my experience that there is virtually no room for negotiation. Since by contract you are obligated to work for the lab to which you are assigned, you can't leave. This gives you no leverage in negotiation. Your negotiation might consist of, "I'm not happy with that salary number." To which the employer might respond, if he is feeling charitable, "OK."

I disagree with some of the comments in the previous post to some extent.

[quote]I will have a job and be getting job experience for 3 years after I graduate...[/quote]

Based on my experience and the experiences of others on this forum, the job experience is awful. I have a Ph.D. and the work I am doing is not even closely related to my research area. When I eventually look for a job outside of the DoD, I will then have to explain to prospective employers why I have a period of 3 years during which I was working on tasks unrelated to my field.

[quote]This program gives you a lot of things that are incredibly valuable besides the paying for school and giving you lots of money.[/quote]

I do admit that during school, the stipend is good relative to a graduate student stipend (which is very low). But this can be negated from the low salary that is paid following graduation.

Including tuition in the income is fine for students who plan to enroll in the program for only undergrad. But for graduate students in math and sciences, this is misleading. At both of the graduate schools I attended (for M.S. and Ph.D.), it was pretty much a given that most students had tuition covered by their advisors. So, it is probably realistic to exclude tuition from your income estimate if you are planning to go to graduate school in math or science. The $90k number is I think a misleading number to throw around, unless maybe you are an undergraduate who is attending a private or out-of-state school and you are sure that you have no other way to pay for school.

And even if you have to take out loans, you may still come out ahead by doing so (especially if you are attending an in-state school), because the salary after graduation is - at least is my case, and those of others on this forum - not competitive at all.

[quote="onlooker"]wow, that's crazy! i could make way more than that out of undergrad with my chem e bachelors... not really sold on this SMART program...[/quote]

While it is true that you [i][b]could[/b][/i], there are a few issues with that statement that should be looked at. SMART pays for school, for me I am getting 25k/semester paid for, plus books, plus the 2k/month that I get for living expenses and the $1200/week minimum bonus I will be getting for 12 weeks this summer, lets round to 15k for the year. Overall 90k/year while I am in school, I realize this includes a school that is a bit expensive, but most education these days is. I will have a job and be getting job experience for 3 years after I graduate and will have security clearance and a MS in Computer Engineering.

This program gives you a lot of things that are incredibly valuable besides the paying for school and giving you lots of money. Government benefits are also amazing.

So a pay cut for a couple years doesn't sound too bad considering what the program is giving me. I cant find any other programs that fund a BS level degree and give you this many other benefits. It is up to you to choose if you want this or not, but take some time to consider everything you get, and not just the oh I could make more money in the private sector, because those are not guaranteed jobs, and you are looking at the average salaries.

wow, that's crazy! i could make way more than that out of undergrad with my chem e bachelors... not really sold on this SMART program...

If you belong to either an engineering or computer science skill community, there is a special pay schedule. For people with a bachelor's, this pay is roughly 56k. For a master's degree, those in engineering will make roughly 70k, and those with a computer science degree will make roughly 66k. These numbers are only approximations, since these numbers were taken only from one government institution, and the exact dollar numbers were omitted.

60k